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All EVs, PHEVs specs/dimensions compared

Discussion in 'Gen 1 Prius Plug-in 2012-2015' started by evnow, Nov 13, 2011.

  1. giora

    giora Senior Member

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    That would be nice!
    Also, charging time for depleted battery, perhaps on a common basis (say 220V source).
     
  2. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    Good. Charging losses count, and so should be included. Since we pay for kWh at the meter, we want to know miles per kWh (or other equivalents) at the meter.

    There really is no common source. A 240 volt circuit might be 70 amps, 50 amps, 30 amps, etc. The same car might have different charging rates selectable depending on the source. And nobody who is careful will completely deplete their charge. A much better piece of information is miles (or km) per hour of charging, but again, that will depend on your charging source. This is something you really have to calculate from miles/kWh and your own available charging rate, in kW.
     
  3. evnow

    evnow Active Member

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    I've added the charger wattage - total battery capacity divided by the charger wattage gives you approximate charging time. This is only for L2 charging.
     
  4. evfinder

    evfinder Member

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    To add to what Daniel said above, 240V isn't always 240V either. Actual voltage can vary from about 189V up to 240v since voltage fluctuates with the load on the grid. Also, some service is set to 208V, 220V, or 240V nominal. RAV4 EV drivers found that chargers with 208V service charged significatantly slower than those with 240V service.

    A good rule of thumb is to estimate 5 miles per hour of charge at 110V and 10 miles of charge at 220V.

    Noel
     
  5. giora

    giora Senior Member

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    Define deplete.
    And what is "deplete their charge"?

    Toyota published charging times for 110V and 220V sources for depleted battery (OK daniel, depleted to the minimum SOC allowed, is this satisfactory for you?) I am sure other manufacturers publish as well.
    I believe this is valuable information to a potential buyer that should be on the chart up front and not hided by "calculate yourself", you are entitled to your opinion.
    Why being such argumentative?
     
  6. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    Driving the car until it stops. Only someone who is not paying attention does this with either a gas car or an EV.

    Yes, manufacturers give figures, but these mean little. A more useful figure is number of miles (or km) per hour of charging at whatever charge rate you have available, which may be, and often is, different for different people with the same car.

    The base model Leaf offers two different charging rates, and the upper model offers an option for a third charging rate. I think the PiP offers two charging rates. I don't know about the Volt. The Tesla Roadster can be charged along a wide continuum of charging rates from nearly zero up to something around 20 kW.

    With my 40-mile Xebra, I never intentionally planned a drive longer than about 30 miles, or a hair over. With my 245-mile Roadster I will not plan a trip over about 200 miles. In my Prius I try to add gas before I get to two bars on the gauge, and if it drops to one bar I fill up at the first opportunity. Driving to empty is never a good idea in any car.

    What good does it do to compare the time it takes to fill an empty Leaf with the time it takes to fill an empty Tesla when the Tesla has two and a half times the range? It's the available charging rate that matters. And that is not a fixed number for either car.

    So, do you list the maximum possible charging rate? For the Leaf, that's only available at a very limited number of public charging stations. Where I live, there aren't any of those. Do you list the rate at 240 volts? But wait, is that 240 volts at 15 amps, 30 amps, 40 amps, or 70 amps? I charge at 240 volts and 40 amps, but other Tesla owners have the HPC at 70 amps, and some make do with 25 amps. There are too many variables to give a useful single figure.
     
  7. giora

    giora Senior Member

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    With a PHEV 'driving empty' or using all the electric range the battery can give is an everyday practice, surely not 'careless driving'.
    With your electric cars you suffer from range anxiety and that's understandable.
    All your arguments against charging time info are also true to your suggested 'miles per hour charging' number.
    Sorry Daniel, you did not convince me, range is important so does charging time to achieve this range, no wonder manufacturers publish it it is a valuable info for the potential buyer.
     
  8. iRun26.2

    iRun26.2 New Member

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    And, actually, on a longer than 15 mile trip (in my 2012 PiP), it will be disappointing to me if I somehow get back to my house with ANY charge left.

    On cold days, I will probably run the ICE a little, to initially warm up, and then switch to EV mode. I can see myself forgetting about the remaining EV energy and getting mad at myself for making it home with left over charge! :)

    I think learning how to best optimize my resources in a variety of driving conditions with my PiP will be quite a bit of fun. (Another reason to like the car, even though I don't get a pass for an HOV lane in Minnesota). :)
     
  9. Allannde

    Allannde Just a Senior

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    Both Daniel and I have lived with electric powered vehicles which lack sophisticated battery management. We know that the consequences of draining batteries to empty can be severe and that battery management is a protection but one that it possible to outsmart. It is a bad idea to intentionally drain a battery to empty OR a gasoline tank to empty. Read your owner's manual.

    Sure range is important, so is a working traction battery. You can get a lot of range for the cost of a replacement traction battery, you just need to charge more often.
     
  10. iRun26.2

    iRun26.2 New Member

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    It is my understanding that there is Toyota firmware that controls the complex battery management tasks. This takes away the possibility of completely discharging the battery (and damaging it). Thus, the 15 miles (probably less) of EV quoted is really 15 miles of EV the system allows you to use before the battery is at the lowest allowed range. At this point, the battery is not discharged, the system will simply not let you use any more battery capacity until you charge again.
     
  11. giora

    giora Senior Member

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    You are driving a Prius, so does Daniel, I suspect both of you know exactly what I mean by 'depleting the battery' in a HEV or PHEV, it is depleting it to the SOC when the ICE kicks in, perfectly legal and practical if you read your manual.
    This is nothing to do with 'intentionally drain the battery to zero SOC'. Dont twist my words just for the sake of argument (or - maybe just to score another post?).
     
  12. Allannde

    Allannde Just a Senior

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    Lower the temperature, your assumption that I was speaking of the Prius that both Daniel and I own is not correct. We also owned Zap Zebra electric vehicles for years and this allowed us experience with EVs which is wider than most. The caution about the possibility of damage to batteries was not intended to score points. It is real. One of the reasons that electric and electric assist vehicles have been slow to emerge is the need to find ways to make batteries less vulnerable to those who would "push the limits". Hopefully good progress has been made, but those of us with experience are cautious. Electric propulsion has some fundamental differences which many are just preparing to experience. Enjoy the ride!
     
  13. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    You are mistaken on two counts:

    1. I do not suffer from range anxiety in my Tesla, and I did not suffer from range anxiety in my Zap Xebra. The Tesla has a range of 245 miles, and I do not use it for road trips, therefore it has far more range than I will ever put on it.

    With the Xebra, I simply did not drive it if I needed to go father than about 80% of its range. Therefore, no anxiety.

    Range anxiety only arises when you try to drive a car so near its absolute limit (whether gas, electric, or hybrid) that you do not know if you will make it. It is reckless to do that, whether it means trying to drive a Leaf 100 miles on the freeway, or trying to drive a Prius 600 miles through a desert where there are no gas stations.

    2. Driving a hybrid or PHEV to empty does not mean driving it until the ICE turns on. That is not empty. The computer turns on the ICE when the battery has reached a predetermined level.

    However, if you drive it until it runs out of gas, and then continue to drive until the battery is truly empty, you can do very serious damage, and the owner's manual severely warns against doing this. Some folks have done it and gotten away with it. Others have found themselves with a worthless, dead battery pack.

    Perhaps the Gen III and/or the PiP will have software to make the car stop before the battery runs down enough to damage it. But even so, if you run the car to empty then you are stuck, and I repeat what I said earlier: only a careless person runs his car to empty because then it won't go, and that is a bother.

    Empty means empty: It means there is no fuel remaining, and the car cannot go unless you get out and push it.
     
  14. giora

    giora Senior Member

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    Back to topic.

    I think maximum charging time as published by the manufacturer is a good parameter to add to the chart.
     
  15. ksstathead

    ksstathead Active Member

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    Per bobwilson4web's testing, when he ran his gen3 out of gas, it shut down immediately, thus protecting the battery (more than the passengers, he argued).
     
  16. iRun26.2

    iRun26.2 New Member

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    Allannde:

    I appreciate your perspective, having experience with EV systems batteries that were 'less protected'. I once heard that early Honda hybrids vehicles had trouble (early battery failures) because the users were 'allowed' to discharge the battery deeper than was advisable (although it may have been a Toyota dealer that told me that bit of information). That made me glad that my 2005 Prius had built in intelligence to protect my battery from me discharging it too far (and, at the time, not understanding it, I probably would have done just that!)

    It is good advice to understand basic rules of battery longevity in the new PiPs even though Toyota probably already has gone through great pains to make it automatic. The car is rather expensive (even with just the standard trim, at least for me) and new. I can not afford to have to purchase a new battery in the near term, should I somehow damage it by doing something stupid. I will try to be somewhat cautious.
     
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  17. evnow

    evnow Active Member

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    Maximum as in using L1 ?

    May be I can add the optimal time using L2 i.e. using max rate of the on-board charger - but not quick charging. Even that can be difficult to figure out for Model S - with multiple battery packs and 2 charger options (10 or 20kW) - we have 6 possible figures.
     
  18. giora

    giora Senior Member

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    Figures can be from - to if you wish and I see no big thing if it's left blank for one car.
     
  19. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Three. QC is no longer an option. It's standard.
     
  20. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    Nice data. Cargo Volume is one spec that has apparently turned into a political football.
    Gen2 Prius was 14.4 cuft but Gen3 and PiP are 21.6 cuft. Not to be outdone, Leaf has 23 cuft above!!!
    Here I am slumming around in a Gen2 Prius could get a minivan worth of cargo space buying a PiP or Leaf.
    What gives here? Apparently, please note the new qualifier word: "EPA" Cargo Space.
    I must assume US EPA has allowed the autos to quote cargo volume with one or two seats folded down.
    Therefore it is becoming somewhat meaningless to compare Cargo volume.

    Best I can figure, PiP "trunk" space is 15.6 cuft vs. 14.4 cuft on the Gen2 Prius.
    I am thinking this includes 1+2+3, where 1=bottom compartment 2= space below hatch cover 3= space above hatch cover.