Am I stupid for not getting VSC?

i hate to say it, but yes you are. last week we had cold weather, snow and consequently treacherous road conditions (we get this type of weather about once every 3 years or so, so unlike other parts of the country, we simply do not have the equipment to effectively deal with this kind of weather. if you saw Monday night football game in Seattle, i am talking the next morning)

but there was a steep hill, iced over, and empty. a perfect time to test my control. so i basically hit the brakes hard to enough to start skidding then was able to change lanes while still skidding to a stop without losing control.

after that experience i can say without the least bit of reservation that not getting VSC is a huge mistake.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jayman @ Dec 4 2006, 03:53 PM) [snapback]357632[/snapback]</div>

i know where you are coming from. we did a 150 mile roadtrip on the worst driving day in the Pacific Northwest in probably 7 years (since jan 1999 i guess) which was the day after the Monday night football game in Seattle where some people took over 12 hours driving home in snow after that game.

during our travels the next morning, we saw a multitude of accidents, with the exception of a VW bus, one triple axle panel truck, and two small somethings, (couldnt tell what they were) everyone in the ditch was a 4 wheel drive. obviously people dont understand that spinning 4 wheels doesnt work any better than 2 on ice.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tideland Prius @ Dec 5 2006, 12:22 AM) [snapback]357822[/snapback]</div>

Jon

Well, like I said, idiots come in all shapes, sizes, colors, and gross non-adjusted income levels. I've seen plenty of Range Rover drivers act like fools too, so my Chinese co-worker is the exception to the rule.

In most cases, clearly a case of a "high class" car with a "low class" driver

jay

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ceric @ Nov 25 2006, 09:25 PM) [snapback]354110[/snapback]</div>

VSC is not currently available on the Honda Civic Hybrid which is the primary reason we went with the Prius after having the opportunity to test drive both on the same post-blizzard day in Colorado. In a big, empty hotel parking lot holding about 4" of snow we whipped both cars around to see what would happen.

On the Prius the accelerator deadened slowing the car while cornering as directed without fishtailing. The Civic plowed forward at full speed despite having the steering wheel cranked left. How much this behavior has to do with the absence of VSC I leave to others to figure out. But for our driving habits we felt much better going with the Prius but missing the far superior interior of the Civic.

Change isn't easy for some folks who will continue to offer reasons against adopting new technology until the such technology has fully percolated. (Airbags, digital cameras, tri-fin surfboards, online banking, etc.)

-philmo

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(philmo @ Dec 9 2006, 08:53 AM) [snapback]359730[/snapback]</div>

Far superior? To each his own I guess. I find the current gen Honda Civics to have a really weird interior. It'd make me think twice about considering a Civic if I had to.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cwerdna @ Dec 9 2006, 01:26 PM) [snapback]359813[/snapback]</div>

I'll offer specifics from our 1-week old 2007 Prius...

The hard plastic, black, bark-like texture on the dash and upper doors. As my neighbor pointed out on his, it's gonna be a pain to clean once summer rolls around and we start getting dust inside the car. On the Civic they've use a soft, bumpy "rhino-hide" material very similar to what we have on our Volvo S60.

Poking around the floor while installing mud mats reveals a lot of places where the carpeting is not glued down and sorta pooches up like a cheap suit.

The seats on the Civic have more thigh support and a vertical adjustment. Not so on the Prius.

Other areas on the Prius that use hard, cheapy plastic vs. the softer rhino-hide on the Civic.

If it sounds like I'm pimping the Honda let me say that it was almost a coin-toss between the two for us. But, as I said, the VSC on the Prius won us over.

 

VSC is currently too new a product. i will have to mention this to my insurance agent to see what he says. i did get the ABS discount. and theft deterrent system discount...less than 10 miles to work discount...medium city, high traffic area surcharge... oh well, win some, lose some

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(philmo @ Dec 10 2006, 08:34 AM) [snapback]360025[/snapback]</div>

Beats me, I've had my Prius since January 06 and I haven't had to clean the plastics.

As for carpeting not "glued down", I've never looked at whether any of it is on any car I've owned nor have I ever seen any car reviews comment on that on any car. That's a new one to me.

From me looking at current gen Civics before (not in much detail since I wasn't even considering the car), the negatives to me are the weird interior shapes and the bizarre tach and digital speedometer.

When the 04 Prius first came out, I was actually fairly impressed w/the interior for a car that Toyota was losing $ on (at least at that time, probably not anymore). It was a huge step up from the previous gen.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(philmo @ Dec 10 2006, 11:34 AM) [snapback]360025[/snapback]</div>

I have to use a soft lint-free terry cloth, damp usually with water. If I try to clean it with paper towel, god what a mess it leaves behind. You won't like dust in summer, every little spec jumps out at you.

 

The VSC is cool; when I'm pushing the limits of the car's capabilities in the twisties and see the little light on the dash illuminate, I know that I didn't find the best line through the corner and the car had to make up for my deficiencies as a driver.

Sometimes, if it's a nice decreasing radius corner, I try and see how long I can keep the light on; the Prius seems remarkably willing (for an automobile of this type) to be balanced with throttle input.

I'm wondering if the VSC is actually willing to be an accomplice in such evildoings..?

To think that a safety device can be used to drive the car FASTER!

And no, I don't tailgate people because I have ABS.

----------------

On a different note, perhaps the logical conclusion of this discussion is to remove the driver from the control loop completely? We could then be turned into 'systems monitors' instead...with only the occasional drill thrown in to make sure we're still paying attention...

It may sound arrogant, but I think I've got a pretty good VSC system built right into my head, too. And I'm leary of systems which encourage me to abdicate my responsibilites as a driver...not saying that I'm not for safety, but computers make mistakes too...and if I'm going to be killed in an accident, I'd rather do it myself.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Dec 11 2006, 04:27 PM) [snapback]360579[/snapback]</div>

Actually, every modern passenger airliner, and quite a few fly-by-wire military aircraft, already do that. There were teething problems with the Airbus approach, but overall it reduced the incidence of "pilot error" especially CFIT.

Unless the system isn't equipped with EGPWS. Then the electronic fly-by-wire system will very happily commit electronic suicide and fly the aircraft into the side of a mountain. Don't laugh, happened to a domestic French carrier "Air Inter" Airbus and a United ... or was it American Airlines? ... Boeing 767 in Columbia.

In my field of industrial control systems engineering, I still think of the person as the weak link in the system. It's hard to predict human behavior, despite having access to Human Factors Engineering, as us humans are by nature so unpredictable.

With most systems and the test regimes, one can reduce error to a very low and predictable level. You can never have Zero Risk.

 

What I really like and nobody has mentioned is that VSC can do what I (or any driver with only one brake pedal) could never do.

Suppose you have to make a very tight right turn and start to understeer. Sure any of us if skilled and not panicking can release the throttle, reduce the steering angle, and possibly apply light pressure to the brakes, but what if that's not good enough or reducing the steering angle means an accident? Can you release the brakes on the left wheels and apply the brakes on the right, especially the right rear wheel, to turn the car to the right? I can't but my VSC can.

What if you need to make a tight right turn and brake and you start to oversteer? Again, if we respond perfectly without panicking, we can reduce the brake pressure and steering angle to avoid spinning. ABS can even help by releasing the brakes before or until we are sideways by reducing the brake pressure. But can you or ABS apply the throttle (to the front wheels) and some counteracting brake pressure to only the right front wheel to shift weight and traction to the rear wheels and turn the car to the right? I can't but my VSC can.

Like ABS, the VSC has quicker reflexes than I do. Like traction control, it might be less susceptible to panicking instead of doing what's needed. But it also can control the cars in way that I could only do with a separate brake control for each wheel.

Soon after getting our Prius, I was driving it in heavy rain one night at 3 am on empty roads. I intentionally tried to make the car understeer and oversteer. I saw, heard, and felt the VSC intervene. I was unable to make the car understeer or oversteer. I know it is still possible, but I'll wait for a huge snow or ice covered empty parking lot to try that aggressively. =)

I agree that its hard to judge the value of something like this or airbags based on not needing them in the past. I'm sure the implementation of this technology will continue to improve. I also worry about instilling overconfidence and the possibility of having to ever go back to a car without stability control. If I lived in LA or Alabama, always drove very cautiously, and never used the steering to avoid accidents (just the brakes and accelerator pedals), then I wouldn't worry about having VSC. I live near Boston, drive too fast on turns, use the steering wheel as much or more than the brakes to avoid accidents, and have experienced understeer and oversteer in other cars. I was happy to pay several hundred dollars more for the VSC and wait months longer to get it. (In New England of all places, Toyota didn't used to offer packages with VSC but without HID or navigation.) I think it makes as much sense as spending another several hundred dollars to drive on dedicated snow and ice tires where I live.

Want to see the difference VSC can make?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fG3cOEW53ag

Live in LA, Alabama, or don't know what black ice is and why northerners are so thrilled with VSC?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfHeCQzWuQg&NR

 

I'm all for the electronic aids, unless folks start driving far more aggressively, which could result in more accidents.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tideland Prius @ Dec 13 2006, 07:04 PM) [snapback]361991[/snapback]</div>

Yeah, driving around Lake Tahoe in the winter I never see rusted-out Subaru Outbacks on their roofs in a ditch. Drivers of rusted-out Subarus are usually pretty experienced winter drivers. It's almost always a shiny new SUV that you see wrecked on the side of the road (often with aftermarket wheels and three-season tires - idiots).

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jayman @ Dec 10 2006, 08:17 PM) [snapback]360160[/snapback]</div>

We keep a Swiffer in the glove box. It's one made for autos, with a little plastic handle. A quick pass over the dash and MFD gets rid of most of the dust.

Tom