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AMSOIL used in transmission fluid...not happy

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by stillageek, Apr 14, 2012.

  1. stillageek

    stillageek Junior Member

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    I found a nice Toyota repair show nearby. They do good work at good prices. I've had my water pump and serpentine belt replaced ($350 for everything using only Toyota OEM parts.).

    My 2004 Prius is approaching 90K miles. I don't drive a lot but after reading all the post about transmission fluid contaminants I decided to have it changed.

    I picked my car up Friday afternoon and drove it to dinner then home. I then inspected the itemized repair statement.

    I was more than a little shocked to see Amsoil Synthetic Low Viscosity World Standard Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATLQT) used for the transmission service.

    The shop is only open M-F so I left a voicemail asking for a call back and that I want Toyota WS fluid used.

    How much (if any) damage could be done in 4 days and maybe 80 miles of driving?

    When I brought my car in the first time I was happy to hear the owner stating he only used Toyota OEM parts unless the customer ask otherwise. Seeing Amsoil transmission fluid used when their website specifically states not to be used in CVTs is quite surprising.
     
  2. xs650

    xs650 Senior Member

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    Here is the Amsoil reference saying the don't have transmission oil for a Prius
    2010 TOYOTA PRIUS 1.8L 4-cyl Engine Code 2ZR-FXEVariable Fuel - AMSOIL Online Product Application Guide

    The problem isn't that a Prius transmission is a CVT, mechanically it isn't. The problem is the electrical characteristics and compatibility of the oil with the electric motor windings. Same result though, don't use Amsoil ATF in a Prius transmission.
     
  3. cnschult

    cnschult Active Member

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    I believe there is a transmission fluid by ASIN you can use, it even comes in a 4 quart container, but you have to really hate your dealership to not use the World Standard.

    Although you have evidence of their mistake and a transaxle failure means they would have to replace it, he seems like a nice small business owner so try to get back there as soon as possible so he isn't forced to replace your transaxle. I would even go as far as to ask him to drain the Amsoil, put in 3 quarts of WS, then drain and discard that just to get rid of as much of the Amsoil as possible, then refill with new WS, my $.02
     
  4. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    I agree with the suggestion to flush. You don't want any traces of that stuff floating around where it can attack the windings of your MGs.

    Tom
     
  5. seilerts

    seilerts Battery Curmudgeon

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    Hold on now, don't panic. As far as I know, no one has ever done an analysis of AMSoil ATL in a Gen II or III Prius trans. AMSoil ATF -- the Type IV equivalent, got a bad rap because, as far as I know, a single oil analysis from Bob Wilson's Gen I showed abnormal copper content. This suggested that the fluid was dissolving motor windings etc. Generally speaking, all automatic transmissions contain copper in a few places and an ATF that attacks copper directly would caused bombed transmissions all over the place and be shunned and shamed heavily. So while an effect was observed, it was still second order, after 20K miles. It wasn't like he put it in and a week later his transmission blew up. Further, Bob switched to ATF WS which also showed high copper wear rates.

    AMSoil also says,
    AMSOIL Synthetic Fuel Efficient Automatic Transmission Fluid is recommended for automatic transmissions and other applications requiring DEXRON® VI, MERCON® LV, SP or Toyota WS.

    A Toyota hybrid transmission is not a CVT. It is a power split device, substantially similar to a transfer case. CVT fluid is somewhat like manual transmission fluid having special friction modifers. A CVT like in a Honda has the competing problem of needing to allow slippage in the forward clutch pack without burning the friction discs, while allowing no slippage whatsoever in the belt-pulley system. You cannot use an ATF of any type in a belt-driven CVT.

    A flush is an absolute waste of fluid. You could do the community a favor by running this for 30K miles and running an oil analysis on it.
     
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  6. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    The OP may not be as adventurous as Bob Wilson with regards to installing unrecommended fluids in the transaxle. I would not be the first to volunteer to try AMSOIL, as I have no problems with the use of Toyota ATF WS.

    I don't think it is necessary to flush. If the OP's understanding was that Toyota ATF WS was to be used then it is quite reasonable to ask for the other ATF to be drained and replaced with ATF WS. It is unlikely that any damage resulted from the short usage.
     
  7. richard schumacher

    richard schumacher shortbus driver

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    If it were me I'd want the shop that made the mistake to pay for a flush at a Toyota dealer, but in any case get it replaced (drained and refilled) immediately. Let others perform experiments on their own transmissions.
     
  8. seilerts

    seilerts Battery Curmudgeon

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    Who should the original poster trust? His independent mechanic, who is out turning a wrench every day, reliant entirely upon his knowledge and skills to fix cars correctly in order to earn repeat business and word of mouth referrals? Or people in the internet chatroom with nothing better to do than perpetuate an urban legend based on 1 data point from a different type of fluid AND a different model transmission?

    Seriously, the concerns raised here are WAY OVERBLOWN. stillageek, talk to your mechanic. Don't assume that anyone here knows anything more than him about this issue, including me.
     
  9. xs650

    xs650 Senior Member

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    Amsoil doesn't recommend that oil for a Prius. It might just be that Amsoil knows more about the long term effects of that oil in a Prius tranmission then the mechanic.:eek:
     
  10. The Electric Me

    The Electric Me Go Speed Go!

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    Let me pull a "Scar Face" here, and say, Who should the OP trust? He should trust himself.

    No knock on his independent mechanic, who I'd bet was doing the work in good faith and earnest. But he did put a transmission fluid in, that the manufacturer themselves fails to recommend for The Prius.

    I would definently get it drained. Replace with Toyota's fluid. Most of us, are just vehicle owners, not people charged with either the curiousity or the desire to risk our respective vehicles on experimentation for the good of the community in whole.

    I think in the OP's case, this was recognized quickly enough, and I do not think there was any malice or negligence on the behalf of the independent mechanic. However, he should be made aware of the reality.

    But I would not ask ANY owner to stay with an unrecommended fluid in their vehicle, or to operate their vehicle with any fluids that made them uncomfortable.

    The bottom line is the OP is "not happy". I don't care if it is an independent mechanic, or a Toyota Dealership Service Technician, or an Alien off a space ship. If parts, fluids were used that the owners does not want? And especially fluids not recommended by Toyota or the AMSOIL themselves? Then I think it well within the owners rights to expect the recommended fluids be used.

    The scary thing, is the OP checked his invoice carefully and noticed this. What if he hadn't?

    He could now unwillingly and unknowingly be participating in an Transmission Fluid experiment that he never wanted to be part of...

    Just a good example of why you want to check the fine print of your invoices carefully.
     
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  11. seilerts

    seilerts Battery Curmudgeon

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    On the contrary, this is a prime example of how myths get started and perpetuate themselves.

    AMSOil ATL is listed as compatible with ATF WS even though it is not listed as a Prius application. No one knows why. But maybe this mechanic has been filling Prii with ATL for years without issue. Or maybe it is just an honest mistake and the mechanic will make an immediate correction. That's why stillageek needs to talk to his mechanic and make an informed decision, rather than rolling in on Monday morning all loaded for bear based on some of these highly reactionary comments.

    People here run Redline D6 in their Prius transmissions, in spite of the recommendation that they run D4.

    Whether you are talking ATF WS, Redline D6, or AMSOil ATL, it's just synthetic ATF. There's nothing extraordinarily magic or overly adverse about any of it.
     
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  12. oldasdust

    oldasdust Member

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    Seilerts has a good point. When synthetic oil came out the myth was it is not as good as oil and will ruine engines and that was before the internet and sociol media. Where are we now with synthetic oil ?? Synthetics have made their way into all forms of fluids not just lubricants.
     
  13. The Electric Me

    The Electric Me Go Speed Go!

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    But...you should NOT make this assumption.

    " Maybe this mechanic has been filling Prii with ATL for years without issue."

    Plus as owners, WE have a right to insist on the materials and fluids WE wish to have used in our vehicles.

    The FACT that the Amsoil ATF is not listed as an application specifically for the Prius by THE MANUFACTURER themselves? Would make me NOT want to use it.

    That's not perpetuating a myth...that's reading the manufacturers spec sheet and going by what they say.

    If you want to role the dice with it? Go ahead. But in a forum? Or if you are looking for the "best" advice...It would not be a recommendation I would make.
     
  14. edthefox5

    edthefox5 Senior Member

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    Seilerts as usual is right on.

    All he's saying to the op is calm down the shop thought they were doing a good thing. There is no harm here.

    If you feel better running WS take it back and request WS.
     
  15. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    Dissolving copper isn't the issue. If your ATF gets to the copper in a Prius, the MGs are already failing. Insulation is the issue. Prius MG windings, like almost all motor winding, have a coating of insulation that keeps the windings from shorting. If the insulation dissolves, the windings will short.

    AMSOIL may be fine, but I'd prefer if you try it in your Prius first. As a matter of fact, I'd prefer if it was tested for ten years in about twenty other Prius. I don't care to be the guinea pig for potentially expensive testing, nor will I make that recommendation to others. If they want to test, fine, but they need to make an informed decision.

    Tom
     
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  16. cnschult

    cnschult Active Member

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    I think it would be funny if it turned out the shop used toyota WS and had the empty bottles to prove it, and that they just didn't have the option on their computer to put toyota WS on the receipt.
     
  17. seilerts

    seilerts Battery Curmudgeon

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    And so this gets to the heart of the issue, which is the enormous difficulty with challenging the conventional wisdom on PriusChat.

    A long time ago, one person found excess copper in a transaxle fluid analysis. The wrong conclusion was made, that the copper came from MG windings. As you say, if copper was coming from the windings, then one or both MGs is near failure. But, this car was still on the road, 100,000 miles later, as of just a few months ago! 2003 Toyota Prius - Hybrid Fuel Economy Data - NHW11 2003

    Where then, did the copper come from? Did it magically leach through the winding insulation? Or, is there is simpler explanation for all this? Fortunately, from the same car we have additional data, where ATF WS was also shown to have elevated copper, just not at much.

    And so I offer an alternative explanation: bushing wear due to the high silica content found in that same fluid analysis, compounded by the fact that at the beginning of the fluid run (1) the pan was wiped and (2) an external vent was installed.

    Unfortunately, as you also state, now no one will trust AMSoil whether ATF or ATL. It will take statistics like 1 million miles across 100 cars without a failure. But that is what it takes around here to disprove a highly cherished myth.
     
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  18. stillageek

    stillageek Junior Member

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    The shop only fixes Toyota,Lexus and Scion. The owner and his son are both Toyota trained and left dealerships after working at them for 10+ years in 2006. He stands by Amsoil and sent me docs to state it's safe in Toyotas. I replied with documents stating there is no rec for a Prius or CVTs. He is holding firm it is fine. Because we've had this car or almost 9 years and have no plans on getting rid of it soon I'm heading to my dealer for a drain and fill at my expense.

    I live a cautious life...and like to live within boundaries and norms (I fly planes for a living thus a fairly structured work environment as well). Toyota says WS is what's needed...that's what I will use. Hoping to keep the car for at least another 4 years.
     
  19. edthefox5

    edthefox5 Senior Member

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    Seilerts I wish I could thank you more than once on a post.

    And I usually always agree with Tom too but under the copper comes from the windings theory this must mean the conformal coating on the windings is disolving first exposing the raw copper winding. Gotta get through that stuff first before you hit copper. And that stuff is tough. Compromised coating and the trans is destroyed as you know. Which was simply not the case for Bob's car.

    Also btw, Gen I's trans bearings were not sealed. Gen II's are.
     
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  20. GWhizzer

    GWhizzer not so Senior Member

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    I haven't read the posting from Bob on the copper and don't really care; it is only one example and arguably irrelevant.

    I even take Toyota's recommendation for their own fluid with a grain of salt (which is quite common for a manufacturer to recommend ONLY their own products)

    For me I DO care that Amsoil is not recommending it. There is a lot of business incentive for them to do so and yet they have not. It MAY be that they just haven't gotten around to certifying it for the Prius, or it MAY be that it is not appropriate. If it is inappropriate, problems may not show up for years. We just don't know and I wouldn't want to be the guinea pig.

    I'm in your camp. If your mechanic refuses to replace it with the specified Toyota product, I would have it done at a Toyota shop and probably would never go back to that mechanic. It's your car.