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Another Dealer Service nightmare - stripped oil pan threads

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Main Forum' started by wr69, Feb 28, 2022.

  1. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    It would be kind of silly if they specified a no-oil torque for an oil drain plug.

    I've routinely been putting their specified torque on my all-oily drain plug and have never come anywhere near stripping it, so I'd have to conclude their engineers aren't that silly.
     
  2. jzchen

    jzchen Newbie!

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    "Clean and install with new gasket". Dry but it will be coated with oil as you insert....

    REVVL V+ 5G ?
     
  3. Georgina Rudkus

    Georgina Rudkus Senior Member

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    As an engineer wilt some extensive knowledge of screw threads and metal fatigue, 28 ft lbs is nothing but the standard torque fasteners for M12x1.25 threads for bolts holding parts to be fastened together.

    A lot of manufacturers are switching to 35% glass filed PA6-6 or nylon 6-6 and using plastic drain plugs where the effective sealing unit is an O-ring, not a crush washer. O-rings, like gaskets, do not required by the nearly a ton of pressure applied to the sealing surface to achieve a leak-proof seal.

    The high torque pressure and metal to metal seal is a throwback to the early days of the automobile.

    The threads of both the oil pan recess and the drain plug are like linear vanes fastened on one edge. Every time an oil plug is tightened and loosened, these vanes are bent back and forth at the root edge. It's like bending a paper clip back and forth. Eventually, the crystalline bonds in the steel separate. This is called breakage or fracture. The result is called stripping.

    Basic physics in Robert Hooke's Law states that "Stress is proportional to strain." Applying a lower torque value of 10 foot pounds to the oil plug would make the threads last many times longer than those tightened at 28 ft. Lbs.

    This Ford plastic drain plug limits the torque only a few foot pounds by using a limited camming action to prevent over tightening while physically controlling the compression of the sealing O-ring.



    To seal the plug, I have ditched the crush washer and replaced it with a Viton O-ring. I have found the size 112 O-ring to be the ideal size for the Toyota OEM M12x1.25 drain plug. Here's where I got mine.




    It is the ideal size and tightening the drain plug to 10 ft lbs will compress the O-ring to the outer edge of the flange of the washer edge of the drain plug. The friction and compression force of the plug will hold it in place like a lock washer.

    At 10 ft lbs, the plug will not work loose from vibration and will stay in place just like any other gasketed assembly. The drain plug does not need 28 ft lbs of torque to hold any two components together. It just has to hold itself in place.

    The drain plug can be held on securely and sealed by the friction of and compression of the O-ring just like a spin on oil filter.
     
    #23 Georgina Rudkus, Feb 28, 2022
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2022
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  4. Georgina Rudkus

    Georgina Rudkus Senior Member

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    This kit is a good option, of you do not want to change the oil pan.



    Best Q M13 x 1.25MM Oil Drain Plug Tap Thread Repair Kit Oil Pan Screws Rethread Tool

    I would still, however, switch from crush washers to the low torque required o-ring method to avoid future trouble of stripping out the threads in the oil pan.
     
    #24 Georgina Rudkus, Feb 28, 2022
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2022
  5. PriusII&C

    PriusII&C Active Member

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    Do I miss something? I don't see any links or pictures.
     
  6. Georgina Rudkus

    Georgina Rudkus Senior Member

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    Turn off your ad blocker.

    Amazon.com search for
    Best Q M13 x 1.25MM Oil Drain Plug Tap Thread Repair Kit Oil Pan Screws Rethread Tool
     
  7. jzchen

    jzchen Newbie!

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    TapaTalk does not seem to allow Amazon links as well. Go to web view option in the upper right corner (3 squares).

    REVVL V+ 5G ?
     
  8. PriusII&C

    PriusII&C Active Member

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  9. Georgina Rudkus

    Georgina Rudkus Senior Member

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    The plug and the threads in the oil pan are actually made of softer "ductile" rather than harder brittle or frangible metal.

    The harder the metal is; the more brittle the metal is and more likely to crack rather than stretch and deform. Ductile metals will deform and stretch and hold a structure together.

    Repeated high torque tightening to 28 ft lbs and releasing the tension by removing the plug will "work harden" the threads and make the threads more likely to crack. The close to the "yield point' that the fastener is tensioned; the more likely it is to fatigue. Steel tensioned to a small percentage of the yield point will almost never fatigue and fail.

    The theory with the Titanic is that the steel was not ductile enough in the cold Arctic Sea and cracked rather than deformed.
     
    #29 Georgina Rudkus, Mar 1, 2022
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2022
  10. wr69

    wr69 Member

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    Thx to all for quick reply. My old service advisor was out today, so we'll have the talk tomorrow hopefully. I'll keep everyone posted. I also have a 2013 Prius and started work on that in August, that being the first oil change I performed myself (had about 5x10k mile changes from dealer). Both the bolt and filter cap were rather pristine and easy to remove on that one. The crush washer was like new and reused in that case. So I think I may have just ran into dumb tech (if you could call them that) on the 2010 Prius.

    And thx again, I read all the posts very carefully. Special call-outs to these:

    jzchen - thx for the feedback on crush washer appearance!
    Chapman - thx for the inside pic of pan showing tap probably wont work due to thin walled "bolt" insert
    georgina - thx for metallurgy (interesting!) and alternate tap tool rec! might consider that but pan threads seem thin.
    bettergolf - comment about the filter coming off tougher than it goes on.
    Mendel - for the oil change stats and TSB about the underpanel. I had the problem on mine but was out of warranty when I saw that TSB. been meaning to snag a new, used one from a junkyard someday, but they are hard to come by. I have installed a bunch of new pop-rivets from a $10 amazon kit and its holding okay for now.
    Slamanader - thx for pics of bolts; and the caution about crawling under car! I have visions about kicking a breakerbar so hard to get off a stuck bolt, that the car wobbles on the jacks and falls on me! Important point to consider on tougher jobs. Jack stands just dont make me feel that great in any shape or form. I have a slightly different jack-up method but I'm hesitant to even share it since I don't want any liability - or to even think about steering someone wrong.
     
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  11. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    How far between Portland and Vancouver? Maybe you could borrow Mendel's tree stump.

    Once in my reckless youth I left a car up on glass apple cider bottles while going off to buy some parts I needed. (I did not work beneath it that way! It was just so I could put away the jack and tools rather than leave them unattended.) Glass is pretty darned sturdy as long as the loading is even and nothing starts a chip or crack....
     
  12. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    If the permanent oil filter housing is giving you fits, conversion to spin-on is doable. IIRC there's a link in my signature.
     
  13. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    Asked and answered.

    I wouldn't waste my time going back to the dealership.
    For anything.
    EVER again.
    (I haven't even bought CARS from them in over 30 years :p )

    As mentioned above, you can repair the threads more cheaply than getting a new oil pan and perhaps get a oil drain plug with a gasket.
    I do not consider a 10K OCI to be wise maintenance practice, simply because most people simply do not check their oil level every 1k or 1m like it says in the manual, so I would consider a 5kOCI and if you're going to be keeping the car long enough to justify the cost I'd also convert to a normal oil filter.

    Some people change the oil every 5k and the filter every 10k.

    There's lots of ways to do it, and quite frankly if you have a "dealer serviced" G3 that's 10 years old you have MUCH bigger issues than oil pan threads and housing covers. ;)

    Good Luck!
     
  14. Georgina Rudkus

    Georgina Rudkus Senior Member

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    Using the Best Q M13 x 1.25MM Oil Drain Plug Tap Thread Repair Kit Oil Pan Screws Rethread Tool appears to be the best first option.

    Although the welded nut is thin, half of a milometer is not much more to cut into the wall of the threads.

    The threads will be as new, since it will be into the underlying ductile metal beyond the work hardened micro cracks that separated the roots of the original threads.
     
  15. wr69

    wr69 Member

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    Thx to all for quick reply. Talked with my old advisor today; the shop agreed graciously to repair the damage. To be fair, they have been pretty good over the years, and probably the best Toyota dealer in Portland, considering the value, honesty, quality package. I also have a 2013 Prius and started work on that in August, that being the first oil change I performed myself on that car (had about 5x10k mile changes from dealer). Both the bolt and filter cap were rather pristine and easy to remove on that one. The crush washer was like new and reused in that case. So I think I may have just ran into careless tech (if you could call them that) on the 2010 Prius.

    Now, the advisor mentioned to me that he has repaired "hundreds" of these, which was a bit surprising. He mentioned the pan metal is soft, and subject to wear, which I'm not entirely in agreement with, based on Mendel's and others history. However based on georgina's metallurgy details, I can see how the metal could degrade over time, especially if the techs are not careful and hand-tighten too much. Not saying they are right about that, but I suspect every seasoned mechanic thinks their hand has a built in torque wrench. So I questioned advisor on the repair. I said helicoil, he said yeah. I said no. Then I said time-sert, he said yeah, then I said maybe, but I doubt it. Then he said they have a kit to repair this. He said his main shop foreman needs to look at it too. I also said I need to be in the shop to inspect and agree to a solution. he agreed. I suspect we'll settle on georgina's tap and rethread solution, with a new drain plug and oil filter cap. he said replacing the pan is overkill. If the stamped drain nut has some meat in it to tap, im in agreement. I may ask to see a new replacement pan to evaluate it.

    So using AAA, ill probably tow to the dealer on Friday ($20 cost), let them futz with it, while im standing around and see what we come up with. I'm probably going to get details in email tomorrow to avoid the hassle of the tow, unless I'm satisfied upfront with the expected outcome scenarios. If I had a lift or better jacking mechanism, id replace the pan myself, but its still winter, I dont like cold concrete floors, and I would probably need a better angle of attack for cleaning the block before new pan install. I have many other worthwhile projects to attack as well.

    Will update the thread in a few days. Thx again to all the comment, I read all the posts very carefully. Special call-outs to these:

    jzchen - thx for the feedback on crush washer appearance!
    Chapman - thx for the inside pic of pan showing tap probably wont work due to thin walled "bolt" insert, and the comments about torque. I think there might be some value in dropping the torque a bit (2-4lbft) on both the plug and cap. I also think oiling a new crush washer each time is not a bad idea. its pretty tight on the bolt shaft and that might give just a bit more seating wiggle room. I suspect many folks usea new washer, wipe the pan clean and apply, leaving no new lubricating oil on the assembly. Ill probably change my practice on that to "lub" it up. I think it will also hlpe to keep that rubber film on the new washer from getting hacked up from the friction.
    georgina - thx for metallurgy (interesting!) and alternate tap tool rec! might consider that but pan threads seem thin. will probably give it a try if the dealer kit looks good
    bettergolf-comment about the filter coming off tougher than it goes on.
    Mendel - for the oil change stats and TSB about the underpanel. I had the problem on mine but was out of warranty when I saw that TSB. been meaning to snag a new used one form a junkyard someday, but they are hard to come by. I have installed a bunch of new pop-rivets from a $10 amazon kit and its holding okay for now.
    Slamanader - thx for pics of bolts; and the caution about crawling under car! I have visions about kicking a breakerbar so hard to get off a stuck bolt, that the car wobbles on the jacks and falls on me! Important point to consider on tougher jobs. Jack stands just don't make me feel that great in any shape or form. I have a slightly different jack-up method but I'm hesitant to even share it since I don't want any liability - or to even think about steering someone wrong.
    etc - yes i got lazy on the 10k oil change intervals. I trusted toyota too much when they said 10K was fine. the car at 140k burns a bit of oil - 1/2qt per 4k miles right now. This isnt bad IMO, compared to some of the other burner stories Ive read about. I bought the car, expecting to go at least 250k miles, given the success of the G2 prius. these G3 seem to have a bit more issues. In general though its still almost like new, even after 12 years. But Ive always done good maintenance to it. Doing my own work is my attempt to nurse it back into health. I doubt i can lower the oil burning rate, but am trying now: EGR cleaning, oil catch can, Liqui-moly oil treatment, fuel treatments (sea-foam, gumout regane); very low OCI for a few cycles (3-3.5k).
     
    #35 wr69, Mar 1, 2022
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2022
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  16. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    I put my jackstands at the scissor-jack support points ONCE, swore never again; they are way too flimsy/skittish. I use the points marked up in the oil change link in my signature. Also, whenever possible, I have this section of tree trunk, about 12" diameter by 12" long: I pushed that under a strong point, in vicinity of where I'll be crawling under, for insurance.
     
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  17. Georgina Rudkus

    Georgina Rudkus Senior Member

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    My methods;

    best jackstands.jpg my Quickjack .jpg
     
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  18. NewHybridOwner

    NewHybridOwner Active Member

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    I've been replacing drain plugs by Fumoto drain valves on all my cars for years.
     
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  19. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    Maybe the advent of ubiquitous electric impacts, coupled with rushed, junior mechanics? DIY hand tools and a torque wrench, I’ve never had a problem.

    Hey Toyota: put an oil change instruction, complete with torque values, in the Owner’s Manual.
     
  20. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    & how does that best serve Toyota service department interests

    .
     
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