another story knocking the prius

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Main Forum' started by syncmaster, Oct 26, 2005.

  1. syncmaster

    syncmaster Member

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  2. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    "Experts like Peter Schmidt, editor of the pan-European bi-weekly newsletter Automotive Industry Data, reckon that Toyota's hybrid venture, although an impressive engineering program, was more of a public relations exercise.

    "Toyota lacks one fundamental element -- image - unlike BMW or Mercedes. Toyota cleverly used the environmental theme to boost this," said Schmidt."


    "Luxury manufacturers must look as though they are environmentally friendly, they need to have at least one vehicle to prove their green credentials," Pratt said."

    ["Diesels are all round superior to hybrids in terms of running costs, manufacturing costs, flexibility in town and highway, they are winning hands down. Hybrids' only plus? A marginal advantage in very heavy traffic congestion," said Schmidt.

    So will Ford send that creamy V-6 diesel engine to America? I'm sorry to report the answer is no.

    "Ford has no plans at the moment to use this engine in the U.S.," said a spokesman.

    Come to think of it, that doesn't sound like a very serious "no". ]

    So the point of the article is, diesels rule, hybrids suck but we ain't bringing them diesel over??

    I don't get it. Diesels have been around for decades. Funny how only now do people use it as a counterpoint. I'm pretty sure those are the same people who looked down at diesels several years ago.
     
  3. KTPhil

    KTPhil Active Member

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    From the article:

    " Quality of fuel - Late next year a U.S. federal law will force diesel fuel's sulphur content down to 15 parts per million, comparable to European levels of 10 ppm. "

    " Particulate emissions - That nasty black soot which diesels used to spew out has been eradicated by particulate filters, now commonplace on European diesels. "

    " NOx filters - Diesels emit more nitrogen oxide (NOx) than gas engines, but emissions can be reduced to comparable levels by fitting a de-NOx filter, an additional catalyst. Mercedes "Bluetec" technology is an example of this. "



    Adding these anti-smog components, as well as the higher cost of diesel fuel (already high, and much higher when the low-sulfer requirements hit refinery capacity), make the economic advantage marginal.

    It's all just talk today. You can't drive talk.
     
  4. stealth

    stealth New Member

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    I totally agree with the author. Hybrids are just like computers, they'll never catch on...
     
  5. Charles Suitt

    Charles Suitt Senior Member

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    :lol: :lol: :lol: Thanks syncmaster for some amusement.!!

    Such misinformation can only be digested by the woefully uninformed. Unfortunately, there are many both domestic and foreign who have not searched for accurate information and may consider such publications trustworthy.

    I have owned/driven two passenger diesels in years past (Cadillac - what a bad joke! I did startle people nearby with the CLATTER.!!) and (Mercedes - good machine). Perhaps passenger diesels have seen much improvement since then, but the hybrid utilizes the existing infrastructure and increases the efficiency of fuel consumption greatly. I had found it sometimes hard to find a diesel pump - then the diesel taxes were increased so much that hoped-for economy simply vanished.
     
  6. jayselle

    jayselle Member

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    The author is clearly ignorant.

    He states the Prius gets 35MPG in the US. I am the first to admit the Prius does get what it is advertisded to do. I seem to be averaging 48MPG in a flat area with mild weather, so it will probably get worse as it gets colder.

    He list his email address, should we fill his inbox?
     
  7. Jack 06

    Jack 06 New Member

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    A new kind of argument, no doubt generated by a distinguished German philosopher.

    First, they simply STATE that the Prius gets only 35 MPG (U.S. gal.) "in Europe". Why izzat? No evidence. THEN they casually note that the diesels "do as well".

    I had a 1980 VW diesel pickup that was advertised as getting 50 MPG and DID. Now it's 25 years later. Recently, they've cleaned up their diesels. Other than that---hey, guys, what's NEW?

    So Toyota lacks "image", which BMW and Benz have in spades? The Prius is a "publicity stunt"?

    Must be Mr. Schmidt is nearing retirement and won't have to be around to eat his words.
     
  8. Vespasian

    Vespasian New Member

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    Who cares anymore? There's always going to be ignorant people.
     
  9. Wayne

    Wayne Active Member

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    Admittedly, I don't read these articles much any more, as I'm SOOOOoooooo bored with all the journalistic ignorance...

    I'm originally from Michigan, but why do so many of these 'anti'-hybrid articles come from the DETROIT news, and support companies like FORD? I will be the first to admit that Ford did a GREAT thing for mass-production in the early days, but what have they done LATELY...?

    Sorry... :D

    "You can expect around 35 miles per gallon [with a hybrid]". Yikes! Yea, if you siphon gas, and abuse the heck out of it, flooring it at every possible increase in speed!

    "Hybrids do not have long-term economic prospect because they are a lot more expensive to produce than diesels WITH THE SAME RESULTS." It is unusual to find any car, including diesels, that get 50 MPG @ 70 MPH. On top of that, diesel fuel is currently more expensive, and has higher emissions than gas, which only lowers its attractiveness.

    "Toyota lacks one fundamental element -- image -- unlike BMW or Mercedes." Yikes again!! Have you even PEEKED at reliability reports in the last decade or so??

    "Diesels are all round superior to hybrids in terms of running costs, manufacturing costs, flexibility in town and highway, they are winning hands down. Hybrids' only plus? A marginal advantage in very heavy traffic congestion." Yikes again!! The Prius has TONS of acceleration. I routinely stomp on people who try to take advantage of me with only a very light press on the accelerator (don't want to screw up my mileage TOO much!)

    "Ford has no plans at the moment to use this engine in the U.S."

    Huh. What a surprise... So buy a Prius! If you CAN!!!!! :)
     
  10. Panther87

    Panther87 Junior Member

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    I think I read somewhere that the gas and diesel fuel limits are to be tightened up by the end of THIS year. Not late next year.
     
  11. Stevep

    Stevep Junior Member

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    I have only had my Prius for about a week ( almost 500 miles) and it is outperforming my other car ( Dodge Caravan). My first 300 miles, I got 49.6 MPG and filled up the tank(Just under 1/2 full) I am currently getting 55-56 MPG with about 150 miles on this tank :) . I don't see where he gets the 35MPG figure, unless all of the other members of this forum are telling outright lies ( which they are not).

    On top of that, who really cares wheather europeans like the hybrid or not. They want to continue to use desil and gas because they support the mid-east and the terrorist organizations. The Prius, and other hybrid owners, are doing their part to reduce the dependance on foreign oil.

    I really thing that the hybrid bashers really are jelious and wish they had bought a hybrid instead of the gas/ desiel guzzling suv theyhave. They bash the Prius because it has the highest MPG rating in the hubrid class.

    just my 2 cts.
     
  12. Maytrix

    Maytrix New Member

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    I agree. Most of the europeans don't even like to use deodorant, so why should we expect them to take an interest in hybrids?
     
  13. LaughingMan

    LaughingMan Active Member

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    This guys a moron.

    Does he seriously think that Toyota's whole hybrid push has been just a publicity stunt?

    A publicity stunt that has cost them decades worth of R&D... millions upon millions of dollars... and probably hundreds of thousands of man-hours to develop...

    Sure... real cheap way to gain publicity, to change "image."
     
  14. LaughingMan

    LaughingMan Active Member

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    I'm not sure it's just jealousy. I think it's much deeper than that... these people are the established power in the automotive industry. They are industry pundits in Detroit, in Europe, and they are carmakers.

    Hybrids challenge the very basic idea of the design of automobiles that has barely changed in a half a century... it's a technology that seeks out the wasteful parts of driving around an automobile, and seeks to optimize the heck out of each of them, affording better economy, better emissions, and better safety.

    And more than anything else, it challenges the establishment. To the other car manufacturers, Toyota has broken an unspoken rule by defying the conventional design of an automobile and blasphemously imply that all vehicles should be more advanced and not no antiquated.

    So when you see criticism of hybrid technology in general or the Prius in particular, many times you do not see honest criticism... many times you see misinformation as retribution to Toyota for defying the conventional... these people are trying to discredit, more than honestly criticise. They have an agenda, and it is to maintain the hegemony in the automotive industry.

    Diesel is old school technology much closer to the conventional, while hybrid is not... hybrid is a threat to them, and therefore Toyota and the Prius is a threat.
     
  15. Sid

    Sid New Member

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    Maybe Neil Winton is taking kickbacks from Peugeot B) He thinks 27.6 MPG is somehow better than, or just as good as, the 55 MPG average the Prius gets?
     
  16. Jay105000

    Jay105000 New Member

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    Why then did BMW recently announce that it had joined the General Motors and DaimlerChrysler alliance to develop its own hybrid engine? VW, and its subsidiary Audi, also said they had joined Porsche to develop a hybrid.

    they bashed the hybrids and yet they are working to produce one....I think there is a contradiction here
     
  17. LaughingMan

    LaughingMan Active Member

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    I think this shows the auto industry's panic more than anything else. The most important market for any of the auto makers is North America, of course.

    The Europeans may be smugly saying that America is all backward and stupid because diesels haven't taken off here, but when the reality sets in that their sales to the largest market on the world are going to tank because they haven't invested in hybrid technology... then they take notice, and plan a contingency in case their bright diesel future doesn't come to fruition.

    So it puts them in an interesting position. They continue to try to discredit Toyota's hybrids, but have spent the last couple of auto shows showing the world their own hybrid designs. When they are asked about it, they respond that the decision to make hybrids was made grudgingly... like because of demand in America sparked by cars like the Prius, they were forced into investing in hybrids kicking and screaming all the way...

    So they'll be forced to spend money on R&D on hybrids while the simultaneously try to torpedo hybrids.
     
  18. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    You better hope they don't make crappy hybrids lol.

    Even the almighty Carlos Ghosn say it's not economically viable but is forced to join the hybrid scene for publicity purposes. Ya well, if Toyota was thinking that way, they wouldn't have coughed up hybrids in the first place. Now that's moving forward (har har har). Besides, Toyota wasn't really planning a hybrid. They just wanted a super efficient, small car for the 21st century. Just happens that hybrid technology is the only way for them to achieve this goal. A company that focuses on long-term achievement will be ahead. I'm sure Ford knows that too.
     
  19. preludemd

    preludemd New Member

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    It was to my understanding that Diesel motors were always more expensive initally to purchace and maintain. Granted Toyota parts aren't cheap either but they are much more reliable.
     
  20. jeromep

    jeromep Member

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    I wouldn't be too surprised if the first European hybrids were questionable in nature. If they are "kicking and screaming" their way toward that technology I doubt the first results are going to be any good. I see constrained development budgets and limited staff and unreasonable deadlines. That usually leads to a slap-up job that could do more damage to their development of hybrids than not doing it at all.

    I question the logic behind the obvious disdain for the technology. The Germans in particular have been known for excellent power plant design and assembly, especially in areas of highly complex engine design. I'd think they would relish the complexity and grace behind current hybrid offerings, looking to create their own to compete and show off German know-how.

    Cars don't go production unless the manufacturer believes they will see at least a moderate profit. Hybrid Escape, as Ford's first hybrid offering, is very refined and certainly appears to be a solid hybrid in terms of technology and assembly. Fusion will go hybrid next year, probably with a system much like Escape, hopefully improved. From my perspective, if Ford can get their hybrid production up and offer a wider line of them, they and Toyota will have the hybrid market pretty much sewn up. If this is the case for the next 4 or 5 years, it will be hard for GM or the Europeans to get a strong foothold in the market.
     
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