Answers from Tesla

he's using NiMH from 3 Prius battery packs and is using temp interlocks and the saftey plugs from the packs but has disasmbled them and is mounting them in the well under the floor board. When you disasemble the packs you'll find it's mostly wasted space on the left hand side all to do with the computer for the battery. I can't help but think that the LA battery of the CalCar at Lacey is huge compared to a NiMH of the same current capacity. I'll wait till he's got it going and take it for a drive. What I found amazing is the price he paid for the packs. Dirt cheap, and to find 3 of them. He's had one for a year or more that he's used for testing and design work but got 2 more and an inverter assy as well that he's working on. I've seen his numbers and they look impressive. There's more in the works as well but I can't tell all. You'll have to wait.

 

Frank, I love this grassroots Dr. Frankenstein stuff. It's really cool how people like Norm are experimenting and doing all sorts of crazy things. I wonder what the engineers at Toyota think about people essentially hacking the car and, in many cases, extending its capabilities.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Mar 10 2007, 08:10 PM) [snapback]403613[/snapback]</div>

well he's been quite active with the CalCars organization with the developement of the CAN-view relay switching boards and such and this I think is just an extension of that work. As a electrical engineer he is not short of knowledge in the electronic side of it. I'd love to live closer to him to assist with the fabrication side of his work.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Mar 10 2007, 08:10 PM) [snapback]403613[/snapback]</div>

I don't for a minute think that you have a negative thought, but Norm is no shade tree mechanic. He is a true white collar, gentleman, businessman, engineer. Besides, when most of us just dream about something, he goes out and does it.

Something very interesting is brewing in his shop.

I expect that the engineers at Toyota would be very interested in Norm if they are aware of him, but the company is focused on a mass market which is not technically savvy. Norm is doing what he can with things which are available. Norm is free to pick his priorities. It is a different ball game.

 

man, norm is a freakin' genius...

that is all.

 

well daniel, i agree with your decision. that is a lot of money for a niche car. now if it was a 5 seater like the Prius and nothing else changed, then i would do it... if i had the money... which i dont.

as far as Toyota not knowing or caring what Norm is doing... find that hard to believe. what i do believe is that Toyota is paying very close attention to what he is doing and the response he is getting. its a no lose situation for them. they let him do all the legwork and if it flies, they implement it. no market studies, project development on something that may or may not work, etc.

that is why, i believe, they have not done the Plug in yet. they are waiting to see how 3rd party version do before they decide if its worth the effort

 

I think that the battery is the real problem. It's not NiMH or Lithium, both have problems and I can't really see this going anywhere just like Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. Cost and safety are the big things with Li and NiMH is limited by the Ovonics patent. What I perceive is that Toyota knows that Plug in Hybrids are a small niche market of a small niche market and it probably isn't justified to do. Same with EV, if the market said that there was a demand for 12 million of them, the race would be on.

 

Man... tough to keep up with the Tesla threads!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SomervillePrius @ Mar 9 2007, 10:05 AM) [snapback]402883[/snapback]</div>

Let me throw just a wee bit of water on that fire. The Phoenix folks are saying the car's cost is $200,000+. But that the cost to the consumer would only be $45,000 IF lots of funding falls into place. IF they can sell ZEV credits for full price to the big automakers. Tesla, on the other hand, is just pricing the car where it needs to be, and if these other things fall into place, everybody will benefit. But to base your entire sales price (and this is only a theoretical sales price of the indeterminate future) on lots of little financial policies falling into place, and working out EXACTLY as predicted is a bit shaky. IMO.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SomervillePrius @ Mar 9 2007, 12:20 PM) [snapback]402960[/snapback]</div>

That Toyota allowed us to keep our cars was more of a mistake than a policy decision.

Sorry to have given that impression. I don't have "inside" info, really. My only hook is that I'm steeped in this stuff on a daily basis, AND I have three close friends who are on the initial list. In fact I was just speaking to #33 today. They already have their Tesla baseball hats. The good news here is that as soon as they are in customers' hands, I'll get to drive one! I honestly don't think the initial batch will be "further away than 2008." But I also don't have a very good crystal ball.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KMO @ Mar 9 2007, 03:29 PM) [snapback]403063[/snapback]</div>

Whoa. Sounds like me talking.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(loveit @ Mar 9 2007, 06:54 PM) [snapback]403137[/snapback]</div>

In a short-term selfish way, this may be true. But if nobody buys the first model, there will be no follow-on models with improvements. The pioneering folks who take the risks are rarely apprecated for being a huge part of what comes next.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Frank Hudon @ Mar 11 2007, 06:39 PM) [snapback]404010[/snapback]</div>

Not sure I follow your logic. When has the EV market been allowed to speak? Ever? And just because there is demand for something, does NOT mean the car makers can just abandon their billion$ invested in ICE products. They'd have to throw half their business in the trash, and start from scratch. And admit that their core product is NOT the best thing for consumers. It isn't as simple as you make it sound here! Let's say there was documented demand for 12 million EVs. And building those EVs would cost the car maker $5,000 per vehicle due to their investments in companies that would no longer be providing anything used in making EVs (there are thousands of precision parts in an ICE vehicle that are simply not used in EVs). Why in the world would they start building EVs just because there is demand? As long as the car makers don't offer an option, people MUST buy what the company sells, and the company keeps making a profit the same way it always has. What is best for the consumer is NOT always what is best for the business to produce.

Oops. OT.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Mar 12 2007, 12:56 AM) [snapback]404045[/snapback]</div>

Can you elaborate on this please?

 

the car companies do market research all the time, and I just don't think the EV market is all that big. Toyota's leap of faith in the Prius was just a stunning piece of marketing that still defies logic to the other companies. But until all the pieces of the EV sales come to be it's still a niche market, and the bean counters just won't release the beans to sow to bear fruit. The manufacturing companies will have little to worry about till all ICE vehicles are no longer available and by then they'll be manufacturing components for EV. It's just some people will never buy a vehicle that they can't just jump into and drive 1000+ miles over a weekend to go see mom and dad. Probably a bad example but still it'll be used.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Mar 12 2007, 04:20 AM) [snapback]404116[/snapback]</div>

I was mailed six different marketing/satisfaction surveys after I bought my Mazda5 in the fall. Of course I filled them all out. The interesting thing is that on 2 or 3 of them, the market research firm actually included a box to check to show that I wanted to purchase an EV as my next car. I was pleased to see that. And, of course, I checked that box.

So, at least on the margins of forward-looking market research, some firms are thinking of electric propulsion as enough of an option to be worth asking about. Doesn't mean there's a market. But at least somebody is looking to see how big that market might be.

I probably got tossed as an outlier/loony for both owning a hybid and wanting an EV. But maybe not -- maybe someone will make the right inference, that hybrids are introducing a lot of people to the EV concept. I never wanted an EV 'till I drove the Prius in stealth mode. But once I saw that I could get around just fine with an itty-bitty electric motor and battery, it was no great leap to figure out that I do fine, up to the range limit, with no ICE.

Doesn't everybody who owns a Prius think that stealth mode is pretty cool? I didn't really know I wanted an EV until I realized I'd like the Prius to run like that full-time. Anyway, I think hybrids are the thin edge of the wedge, and growth of hybrid ownership is eventually going to generate a reasonably large segment of the market ripe for EVs.

But the point is well taken about the range limitation and the need to be diligent about plugging in the vehicle. A lot of people will never even consider this. But right now, a lot of people won't even consider a car (as opposed to an SUV). So it's more a question of whether there's enough of a niche to be worth filling.

On the range issue, despite the goofiness of the concept, I don't see what's wrong with an EV with a tow-behind generator set. Take the engine out of the Volt, mount it on a trailer, and use the space to provide more rear legroom. Take the trailer on long trips.

But all this is moot until the major manufacturers are convinced that there's enough profit in selling EVs. Given the economies of scale in auto manufacturing, I can't believe that anybody other than the majors is ever going to be able to offer an EV at a price competitive with existing gas cars. So the middle class buyer is going to have to wait until some major automaker is willing to gamble on an EV. Hope that happens sooner rather than later.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Mar 12 2007, 05:20 AM) [snapback]404116[/snapback]</div>

I feel I'm in the category in a sense even though I have a passion for EVs now too.

I'm an electric vehicle driver today. I found after buying my $8,400 electric vehicle that I will ALWAYS have to have 2 vehicles around. So this is what I decided to do. I'm selling my 2006 Prius and buying a very cheap gasoline car. I don't drive enough to have a $30K Prius sitting around. So when it's all done and said I will own a cheap gas car and drive my electric truck 95% of the time. So far I'm on my 26th day of ONLY driving electric. (except for moving my Prius out onto my driveway to display it for sale)

I wish I could get by not having a gasoline car. I just don't know how I could do that long term.

In the 9 months I have had my electric vehicle I haven't once forgot to plug it in. I feel it's just second nature now. And I can be a forgetful person. And it's NO big deal if I was ever in a hurry and my vehicle wasn't charged. I would just jump in my gasoline vehicle if I needed to get somewhere that bad.

I consider myself the spokesperson for someone who would like to drive electric BUT they are ok with driving the cheaper electric vehicles. I mean I don't care what electric truck I drive. I just want it to be cheap. It has to be cheap. I don't need to drive a luxury electric vehicle. What I drive works out fine. To me ALL the perks of driving electric FAR outweight worrying about having to have the best of the best even though I could manage to do that. To me it's about saving money too by driving electric. I'm not going to save a thin dime by buying a Telsa.

I'm proof that buying an electric vehicle CAN save you money. I have spent JUST $30 dollar in gas in the past 9 months. ZERO maintence cost. (I pay JUST $214 a year for FULL coverage insurance) I have to say I'm laughing (HARD) ALL the way to the bank! To me I found a little secret and I'm loving it. B)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(chogan @ Mar 12 2007, 09:24 AM) [snapback]404169[/snapback]</div>

This is exactly what happened to me except it actually went a step further for me when I got into Stealth mode with my Prius and wanted it to stay that way but I knew it wouldn't. Once I started driving an electric vehicle several months later and ALWAYS being in Stealth mode to me there's NO going back. I don't want to JUST be going into Stealth mode when I'm going 2mph or sitting at a light. To me it's a BIG tease and I don't like it. And I found for the limited amount of driving I do my mph on my Pruis was very low.

Don't take my wrong. I do like everything about the Prius except that it can't go completley electric. Being so I it's up for sale. 95%-100% of my driving will be with my electric vehicle! I LOVE IT!!!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Mar 12 2007, 10:24 AM) [snapback]404191[/snapback]</div>

Actually I disagree with you that saving money driving an electric vehicle won't matter to many people. I mean that is a BIG reason some people want to drive electric. They don't want to pay the high gas prices.

Just as with my Prius. I DID save money getting it because a regular gas vehicle I was looking at was just as costly as a Prius after the tax incentative for the Prius. So I did save money the minute I drove off the lot buying a Prius for $30K over buying another regular gas vehicle off the lot for $27K because of the tax incentive.

I have been driving an electric vehicle for 9 months now and I haven't seen my electric bill go up. I guess it uses so little it hardly makes a difference in it. I didn't pay for any system. I plug into any regular outlet.

I think IF someone wants to see cost savings they should come talk to me. I am proof that you CAN save money driving an electric vehicle. You don't know this but I'm a VERY frugal person. I'm VERY VERY good at saving money. (personally and professionally) To me this is one of the BIGGEST perks of driving electric. I can't believe that it wouldn't be for others. If I could go without my computer I would go live like the Amish people. I think they are SO smart. Why give your money away to everyone. And trust me I get whatever my heart desires IF I want it. I just grew up poor most of my life so appreciate saving a buck everyway I can. Buying a cheap electric vehicle was one of my biggest ways to save money.

I mean I hear over and over and over that a Prius isn't going to save you money. SO I know it IS about the money. I hear it ALL the time on here that sales of the Prius go up as soon as the gas prices go up. So your saying it's NOT about the money??? That makes NO sense. To me it's just about ALL about the money!


If I EVER forgot to plug in I will then have to drive my gasoline car if I need to go somewhere. That's it. Problem solved. I won't blame in on the vehicle. I would say crap I was stupid to have forgot. (Lucikly I haven't forgot in 9 months now)

I agree with you that some can't have 2 vehicles for various reasons. Not much I can say about that except I'm sorry for them. As for insuring 2 vehicles it will be cheaper for me to insure my electric vehicle and my cheap gas vehicle that JUST having my Prius. So I will even save on insurance having 2 vehicles (one electric/1 gas) over just having my Prius.