Are the fire and police departments examples of socialistic agencies?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(EricGo @ Jun 24 2007, 05:34 PM) [snapback]467411[/snapback]</div>

Maybe I am uncommon. I have had surgery three times. The first was a prostate operation. Benign enlargement. Not lifestyle related as far as anyone knows. The surgeon described the procedure as "cutting a notch from the inside of the donut" and assured me I'd be good for another ten years. The second was a heart operation for atrial fibrillation. They have no idea what causes this type of a-fib, so they call it "lone a-fib." The third, a month after the second, and 4 years after the first, was another prostate operation, this time a TURP, because during the heart operation they had inflated the urinary catheter inside the prostate instead of inside the bladder, and caused it severe damage. (And a lot of pain, and greatly reduced the flow.)

When I was in Spain I went to the emergency room once because of what turned out to be a urinary tract infection, and I went to a cardiologist for what turned out to be premature atrial contractions, but which, at the time, I thought was my heart starting to give out. I regret not having noted the exact amounts I paid, but for a maximal treadmill stress test it was in the neighborhood of $100; and for the emergency room visit it was something less. Can you imagine getting these services that cheaply in the U.S.? (Talking here about what your insurance company gets billed, or what you get billed if you have no insurance. Because you do get billed for the emergency room if you have no insurance, and you get billed for the deductible if you do have insurance.)

Medical costs are much higher in the U.S. than in Spain. (In Spain I went to a private hospital where the quality of service was equal to the U.S., except that in Spain I got to see a cardiologist immediately, and had the tests without waiting: first a Holter Monitor, and then the treadmill test. In the U.S. I've had to wait as long as 6 weeks to see a cardiologist, and as long as a month for a treadmill stress test.)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sufferin' Prius Envy @ Jun 24 2007, 06:38 PM) [snapback]467430[/snapback]</div>

Everyone knows that anecdotal evidence is meaningless.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sufferin' Prius Envy @ Jun 24 2007, 08:38 PM) [snapback]467430[/snapback]</div>

You prove Daniel's point by mentioning how your sister and doctor friends think everyone is healthcare cheat, instead of looking at actual facts.

http://www.kff.org/uninsured/upload/7451-021.pdf

And then, like a good conservative, you change the subject to transgendered people. Good job. Way to blow smoke.

 

The police and fire are local entities, and therefore the bureaucracy is fairly limited because the organizations are not large enough to have much.

Imagine if they were national services run by the Federal Government, like they are in other countries like the UK. Regardless of who is running the Federal Government at the time, that's a scary thought.

Yet you would want health care run by the Federal Government.

 

So your health insurance company doesn't have a bureaucracy? What does it have? Invisible pixies?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Jun 25 2007, 08:58 AM) [snapback]467540[/snapback]</div>

Indeed.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Jun 24 2007, 02:13 PM) [snapback]467301[/snapback]</div>

:lol: :lol: :lol: :blink: :huh: :mellow: Thank you Daniel, for another well planned reply. It just about sums it up...... The same could be said of the other thankless job, being a police officer..

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Marlin @ Jun 25 2007, 09:21 AM) [snapback]467552[/snapback]</div>

The NYPD is the largest police agency in the US, they're even bigger than the FBI....
As far as Fla. Metro-Dade is the largest in the state. They still rely on city & county commissioners for funds.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hycamguy07 @ Jun 25 2007, 11:52 AM) [snapback]467585[/snapback]</div>

And your point is???? Since you are responding to my post in a way that appears to be countering it, are you suggesting that the police departments of New York City and Miami would benefit from being run by the Federal Government? Do you think these police departments would function better when their funding and priorities are determined by local government in those cities or by the Federal Government in DC? The Federal Government can't even effectively run the local government in DC, which has one of the highest, if not the highest, crime rate in the country.

Back to my point. The OP used fire departments and police departments as examples of successful "socialist" functions of the government and tried to extend those examples to a national health care system. I merely pointed out that the police and fire departments are local entities, under local funding and control, and have no affiliation with the Federal Government. It's an apples to oranges comparison with a national health care system.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Marlin @ Jun 25 2007, 11:06 AM) [snapback]467602[/snapback]</div>

Umm...I don't think the federal government DOES run DC. I'm pretty sure they have a city government for that.

Hey great, if all the local cities want to pick up the health care, instead of the Feds. You're right, it might be more efficient. I have no problem with that. The problem is getting it to happen. Either way, gov't-run health care would be more efficient, more comprehensive, and cover everyone, which our current system does not.

On the other argument swimming around here: most people do NOT get fat, lazy, and start developing lifestyle diseases because they WANT to be sick, OR because they know medical care is available. They do it for a number of reasons, including stress, overwork, and the availability of fast food and sedentary entertainment (like PriusChat ). Those last two didn't exist 100 years ago, which is the MAIN reason we see an upswing in "lifestyle" diseases.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tyrin @ Jun 25 2007, 01:59 PM) [snapback]467658[/snapback]</div>

Thanks, you reminded me of the most pervasive lifestyle disease: blaming anything and anybody for their problems, -- except themselves.

 

In Illinois there is some program... If you don't have health insurance, you just sign up for something where the state covers about $1000 in wellcare shots for your kid each of at least 2 visits in the first year, maybe a third round as well.

So, how does this work for a guy like me? I have decent medical coverage.

If that doesn't cut it, could I pay out of pocket? Yes..

Should I have to if I can? Up for debate....

Do I have to pay if I have coverage and/or can pay? No...

In fact, we try to watch our spending and know what things will cost ahead of time, so I called our pediatrician to ask what the cost would be, how much we will owe after our insurance 'wellness' limit is reached, etc... We figured it up and it would be about 750 out of pocket if we billed it to my insurance and I had to pay the overage.

Or.... She went on to say... Tell the receptionist when you arrive that you want to use the "program name here". My first reaction was... No... this can't be it... what else do I need to learn, how can it be so simple and free? She said... that's it.. it's that easy, simple and free...

So, we did... we paid about $20 for something that wasn't covered... our insurance got off easy and the state picked up the bill.

2 months later, we had another round of shots. Same situation... it's cheaper to lay it on the state than to use our medical coverage, so the state gets the bill again, this time it's more..

Could we have refused the state program, used our insurance and picked up the overcosts? Yes... But, we didn't.... our baby got the same shots that day no matter if we paid the bill or stuck it to the state.

Is this good for the state to be paying for everyone regardless of whether they can pay or if they have insurance or not? I don't think so.. We have a huge budget problem in the state and this is easily making it worse to the tune of millions of dollars. For every 300 to 350 families a year that have means and coverage and could have paid, the state has to pony up a million bucks, not to mention the numbers of those who legitimately couldn't have had the shots if they would need to pay.

The one basic difference between me and someone without insurance, is that I had $1500 deducted out of my paycheck last month to pay for the insurance coverage I didn't use when I let the state pay the bill.

There we have it folks, a socialistic model that's completely stupid.

 

Healthcare should be a hybrid system.
Basic coverage to everyone for shots, preventative, A-Biotics, and common procedures.
Want more? Like Chemotherapy, radiation, specialists? They are covered by the existing insurance coverage.

The way I see it, the problem with our healthcare system is you either have very expensive comprehensive coverage, or you have nothing.
That's wrong. Full coverage should cost money and be optional, while basic coverage should be universal under Medicare. IE: Only have basic? no transplant for you.
A universal coverage plan should not cover everything possible, just the basics.

And ALL sex change operations should be cash only have nothing to do with insurance in any form. Also cash only for liposuction, face lifts, and other non accident related cosmetic surgery.

 

Then why didn't you refuse? You have healthcare. Why didn't you use the healthcare you paid for? Isn't this about everyone that can afford it paying their way and those that can't afford it...tough sh¡t?Instead you choose to sponge off the very system you're criticizing just because you could save a buck and get away with it.

Now what if you had nothing? Would it still be a waste that this allowed you to get shots for your child?

I think I'll use the word Hypocrite now and put you on ignore.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Jun 25 2007, 01:58 PM) [snapback]467701[/snapback]</div>

Be grateful that you have coverage...and a job...and can afford to have $1500 deducted monthly in the first place...and then stop, give thanks for a moment, and *pay the bill willingly.*

Instead --not once but twice-- you abused the system, in a way that would do the most dishonest illegal alien proud.

This, in my opinion, obfuscates any other point you may be trying to make.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hycamguy07 @ Jun 25 2007, 08:52 AM) [snapback]467585[/snapback]</div>

I agree. Though it was not the subject of this thread, a privatized police force would be a disaster.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Jun 25 2007, 11:58 AM) [snapback]467701[/snapback]</div>

It actually makes sense for free medical care programs to serve everyone, whether they can afford to pay or not, and this is the strength of universal medical care: These programs are paid for by taxes, and taxes are paid by everyone but the extremely poor. When someone like Daron, who can afford medical insurance, can benefit from tax-supported programs, he is getting a tangible benefit from his taxes. This is fair, and will make him see the usefulness of taxes. Taken to the extreme, it eliminates the health-insurance industry, which is a big part of the problem.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Jun 25 2007, 08:58 AM) [snapback]467540[/snapback]</div>

Does that include your anecdote?

 

I suppose my biggest problem with all this is the fact
that a civilized society is civilized across the board.
Not just civilized to those with money.
Would you
begrudge glasses to a child because his/her parents
were addicts? or just bums? would you make that child not be able
to see the world because his/her parents were too stupid or too lazy?
you'd probably say no---

But at some magic timeline this stops
you won't do the same for an adult

For a person who can't get a job with insurance
does the death sentence apply?

Our problem is health care in the US is run like a business....

the socialism fear chant does'nt work anymore yeah they pay alot of taxes but they got healthcare, daycare, infrastructure, and a direction, we don't. If the canadian system is so bad, and ours is so good why are'nt we overrun with canadian illegals---why don't they issue snowmobiles, earflap hats and big rubber boots to the border patrol to run down and keep the "millions" of canadian illegals from using our "amazing" health care system?



Froley

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ethereal @ Jun 25 2007, 04:25 PM) [snapback]467902[/snapback]</div>

I offer my personal experience. Patrick claims that all his many doctor and nurse friends report that everyone using the emergency room arrives in a shiny new car. Are they watching the parking lot to see what everyone arrives in? There is a qualitative difference between this third-hand anecdotal reporting, and my personal experience of costs in two different countries.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(EricGo @ Jun 25 2007, 01:51 PM) [snapback]467693[/snapback]</div>

Uh, let's see. I listed contributing factors to lifestyle disease. Are you saying that sedentary activity and fast food do NOT contribute to disease?

Identifying cause and effect is totally different than blaming. Here's an example of blaming:

Unlike fast food and sedentary lifestyle, which have a proven link to disease, inconvenience, personal desires, and getting someone else to pay for it are NOT factors which have any link to disease whatsoever, except in the mind of the blamer.

There are plenty of people who eat fast food because they don't have time to eat properly, because they're working 60+ hours a week to make ends meet. That also precludes any decent exercise. Did they "desire" to get a minimum wage job that didn't pay the bills, or was it just "convenient" for them to work two jobs at once?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tyrin @ Jun 26 2007, 12:02 AM) [snapback]468064[/snapback]</div>

The couch does generate fat, and transfer it to you in the dark of the night.

Tell me how many hours a day YOU decide to lie around, how many calories YOU decide to ingest daily, and I'll make an educated guess how obese you are.

I worked 100 hour weeks for years. My weight went down a bit. Do you know why they are called lifestyle diseases ? Because they are the result of CHOICES WE MAKE.

It is not the couch.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Marlin @ Jun 25 2007, 12:06 PM) [snapback]467602[/snapback]</div>

I was attempting to agree with you