Are you willing. . .?

I guess as I read through this I'm impressed with the number of times the issue is raised of what rights have we already lost or how many lives have been ruined. Does it really have to reach the point where it becomes obvious to everyone that mistakes are being made? Do we really have to have concentration camps and other obvious manifestations of paranoia and hatred before we do something? In my opinion, I have seen enough to indicate that the government is undertaking questionable practices in the name of protecting us from terrorists and this undermines our values much more than the terrorists have or can. We can be criticized for "returning to normal" and trying to put what happened behind us but I think this is exactly what we should do. We should all be diligent and learn from what's occured but we should also recognize that one lesson we've learned from 911 as well as Katrina is that our government is imperfect and therefore we cannot totally rely on them for safety or even to protect our rights. The authors of our constitution recognized the limitations of government and sought to deal with it via a system of checks and balances. Right now we're seeing a usurpation by the executive branch that I believe is exactly the type of thing that the constitution was trying to prevent. The reason for these things are in the constitution is to protect us from our own government. Perhaps the government can protect us from terrorists, but at what cost, and who is going to protect us from our government?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ May 12 2006, 03:26 PM) [snapback]254269[/snapback]</div>

I went to Medical School like you - and I spent and continue to spend time and effort with our war veterans. I honor their service to country.

What are you protecting when you admit you have not lost anything? Serious dents - I know its an effort to subsidize the lack of facts on your side. So name the dents that are being made in your civil rights - I am looking forward to this one too.

I never said anything like you claim in your second paragraph. I respect your service to this country - honestly I do. My father was a Captain U.S. Army (sniper). I was raised with love of country and its liberties - especially given the reasons my family fled europe.

I would respectfully ask that you assume the government is doing its best to protect us and at the same time protect our rights. I believed that to be the case with Clinton and each and every president before him. I truly believe Bush is doing the same - only the circumstances he is operating in are drastically different and more dangerous. The room for error is slight - as you know and appreciate.

Believe it or not, I am on your side too. I do not want my rights or liberties taken from me - the way they were taken from my grandparents. I also know that the survival of the country is primary - without the United States where do I go where I can be free to worship my G-d without fear?

Nice try.

Still waiting - I don't need a regurgiation of the legislation itself.

Name one "right" you have lost. Again to make it easy for you...

The "Rights" I have lost since 9/11
1.
2.
3.

Notice how I only provided 3 columns to fill out.....

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mitchbf @ May 12 2006, 03:34 PM) [snapback]254273[/snapback]</div>

The fact that you fear the government of the United States more than a bunch of terrorists who want to enact sharia and create a caliphate is priceless.... Amazing.

Enough said.

 

"I don't need a regurgiation of the legislation itself. " This is very good. He asked repeatedly what rights we have lost but can't be bothered looking at the actual text of the Patriot Act.

I don't think I could have made it any clearer. We have lost the right to be free of search and seizure, to be free of telephone and internet surveillance, to keep medical records secure, to fly freely without being placed on a do not fly list, to have our library records secure. Is that clear?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ May 12 2006, 03:42 PM) [snapback]254281[/snapback]</div>

My brain is hurting guys. But quickly before I go - image if we had pre-empted Hitler in 1936 or 1937. I even spoke to someone today who said that Iran should have the right to obtain nuclear weapons!! I asked them if they believed if Hitler could have developed nuclear weapons in 1935 if he would (or germany) have the right to develop them??????? History for some of us provides us no lessons - obviously.

Enjoy your rights and liberties afforded you tonight guys. Pray for our young men and women in harms way tonight and tomorrow. And pray that the United States survives this conflict -- our greatest source of harm is not from without, but from within - as has been true for all the worlds superpowers - even the benevolent ones - that is if you agree that we have been a force for good and not evil... but that is another discussion to be had I am sure.

Have a nice weekend all.

Safe motoring to all.

 

"our greatest source of harm is not from without, but from within"

Exactly right.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jared2 @ May 12 2006, 03:47 PM) [snapback]254284[/snapback]</div>

Clear? Actually you just muddied up the entire discussion here - Jeez. That is unless you operate under a different set of "rights" than the other 300,000,000 of us do.

Please cite me where these rights you cited above are located in the Constitution/Supreme Court Rulings/Bill of Rights. I will even make it easier - just cite some pending cases involving the loss of the "rights" you cite above. Try to leave the NY Times out of it - just court cases themselves.

Best of Luck.

I look this up Monday so you have some time to work on it.

 

we've lost the right to pay off our credit card balances...

http://www.shns.com/shns/g_index2.cfm?acti...EALARM-02-28-06

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jared2 @ May 12 2006, 03:52 PM) [snapback]254290[/snapback]</div>

Dont do that to me please -
Dont agree with me -
Thats playing dirty -
There must be a "right" against that dont you think - give me a minute, I'll look it up in the NY Times

Please dont respond for another 10 minutes so I can shut down my computer -

Have a nice weekend.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ May 12 2006, 03:56 PM) [snapback]254294[/snapback]</div>

I dont think they had credit cars in the 18th century

 

"I look this up Monday so you have some time to work on it."

Gee, I'll get on it right away!

Meanwhile, could you perhaps be bothered reading a few paragraphs of the Patriot Act?

I know, you can't.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to be intellectually lazy.

 

I fear my government far more than terrorists, and so should you. They're thousands of times more powerful, and you're living under their thumb. You're far more likely to be affected by the decisions your own government makes than the decisions "Al-Qaeda" makes.

The government can squash you like a bug. Just pray you never end up on a no fly list, have your property confiscated or get deported off for detention without trial.

 

"The government can squash you like a bug"

Just ask Mahar Arrar. He is lucky to be alive.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ May 12 2006, 03:58 PM) [snapback]254295[/snapback]</div>

no, but in the year 2000 i could pay off a $5000 credit card balance in one payment and not have my account frozen as a "reward" for doing so.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ May 12 2006, 04:05 PM) [snapback]254302[/snapback]</div>

Actually, I just did pay $5,000 to my cc. Don't think they liked it. I'm awaiting a visit from "homeland" aka "fatherland" security around 4.00am.

 

War is hell.

The Pariot Act is whimpy, check this out -

"The Sedition Act of 1918 was an amendment to the Espionage Act of 1917 passed at the urging of President Woodrow Wilson(D). The Sedition Act forbade Americans to use "disloyal, profane, scurrilous, or abusive language" about the United States government, flag, or armed forces during war. The act also allowed the Postmaster General to deny mail delivery to dissenters of government policy during wartime.

The Sedition Act was an attempt by the United States government to limit “freedom of speech,†in-so-much-as that “freedom of speech†related to the criticism of the government during war.

The Espionage Act made it a crime to help wartime enemies of the United States, but the Sedition Act made it a crime to utter, print, write or publish any disloyal, profane, scurrilous, or abusive language about the United States' form of government."* *Wikipedia

Yikes !!! The good news is that the Prius is a milesone in automotive history !

 

"The act also allowed the Postmaster General to deny mail delivery to dissenters of government policy during wartime."

Hey, does that mean I won't have to wade through credit card offers any more?

 

BTW, for all of you that voted "NO" the FBI is now on it's way to your house. Voting no in this poll is considered un-American and treasonous, and you are a potential terrorist. You can expect a jack boot knocking on your door any time now. Enjoy your flight to Syria.