Are you willing. . .?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(wb9tyj @ May 12 2006, 11:58 AM) [snapback]254095[/snapback]</div>

Did you live in or study deeply 1939 Germany? I find these extreme comparisons paranoid.

Anyway...I voted yes BUT I think I define freedom differently. Most people seem to talk as if freedom is anarchy...which it is in its purest sense. You can do ANYTHING.. THAT is freedom. Now...anything else is just a mattwer of HOW much control others have.

SO, it would be easier to simply talk about a specific item and whether, in balance, it is too repressive. Laws against MURDER restrict your freedom.

On balance, I think having the phone numbers i cal in a database is very minor. Having the conversations recorded (which they are NOT) is going too far.

Has anyone thought about what is behind this obsession with making sure EVERYONE, including the bad guys, knows all the tactics of our national defense. I am getting a little aggravated about it.

I am not a big believer in the public's absolute right to know everything.

 

Anybody know what the weather like in Syria right now? I hate packing.

Have a good weekend. See you Monday (can you post from Syria?)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ May 12 2006, 03:56 PM) [snapback]254294[/snapback]</div>

Uh, it just triggered an alert....no one lost their right to do it. LOTS of things trigger credit card alerts...This is my point....we are not being intellectually honest.

We need to have a common definition of freedom and "loss" of freedom.

If this guy hadn't checked on his payment, it would have gone through and no one woud have been the wiser.

Folks, there have been ways to 'check" on you since I joined the PD 26 yrs ago.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KMO @ May 12 2006, 03:59 PM) [snapback]254297[/snapback]</div>

Your STUFF is more important than your LIFE. Your gov't is not actively trying to KILL you.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jared2 @ May 12 2006, 04:04 PM) [snapback]254300[/snapback]</div>

I am not convinced there was not sufficient reason to believe he was involved in terrorism. Didn't say he was, said it could have looked like he was.

Please remember, in my business, I deal with probable cause.

Yes, I have arrested people by mistake. Yes, I have disbelieved people later to be found telling the truth. It is not perfect, just the best I can do.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ May 12 2006, 04:05 PM) [snapback]254302[/snapback]</div>

Frozen??? where in the story did it say he had to go to court to get his payment paid off. Did you know when you deposit a big check at the bank, the funds are not immediately available?

The information age is colliding with the ignorance age.

(No, I am not calling you ignorant)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jared2 @ May 12 2006, 03:46 PM) [snapback]254323[/snapback]</div>

Good point, that sure would cut down on junk mail ! And what a perk for the dissenter's ranks.

Except I suppose if a credit card offer happened to get through to your mailbox and it had a flag it and you said "I hate this" and threw it away, then I suppose you could be arrested for sedition. No biggie, easy prison time with free health care, food and benefits. Not a bad gig if we could still get on Prius Chat !

Come to think of it, could they arrest some us here on Prius Chat under the Sedition Act ?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Salsawonder @ May 11 2006, 10:23 PM) [snapback]253915[/snapback]</div>

Once a camel gets his nose into your tent, it isn't long before he's inside and sleeping in your bed.

First it's phone numbers.......

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ May 12 2006, 12:34 PM) [snapback]254178[/snapback]</div>

New Mexico. Michigan. Colorado.

Maine held a "book cutting" when the fire marshalls wouldn't let them burn the books due to fire hazard.

San Francisco. Over 600 titles slashed.

Book burnings in the 21st century.

All in the name of "protecting" us from their idea of a "threat".

Yeah, I'm really threatened by Harry Potter.

And what about the invitation only Bush love ins, er "Town Hall Meetings" where only Bush supporters are allowed to attend? Protesters are either segregated way across town or arrested.

Fascism has come to Americka.

No, it's not the Jews or the Muslims. Not yet.

It's homosexuals.

Hitler gassed them.

It's not clear what Bush has in mind for them yet.

After they've formulated a plan to take care of the problem...they'll go after the pagans next.

 

jared2 wrote: "It can force librarians to hand over records of what you borrowed and prevent them form telling you"

They can try. But I know plenty of librarians that will go to jail for contempt rather than hand over records. And they are purging records or not bothering to keep them specifically so that if they are demanded there is nothing to hand over.

It's librarians, not lawyers or politicians that are protecting your rights.

(No right to privacy guaranteed in the Constitution? Spoken like a true fascist.)

 

War is Hell.

From PBS :

"President Lincoln interfered with freedom of speech and of the press and ordered that suspected political criminals be tried before military tribunals. Probably Lincoln's most controversial act was suspending the writ of habeas corpus, a safeguard of liberty that dates back to English common law and England's Habeas Corpus Act of 1671. Habeas corpus says that authorities must bring a person they arrest before a judge who orders it. The U.S. Constitution says: "The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it." But Lincoln suspended habeas corpus without waiting for Congress to authorize it.

Lincoln's action meant that individuals could be arrested and held without formal charges being lodged against them. The ruling brought Lincoln into conflict with the Chief Justice of the United States, Roger B. Taney. The case was that of John Merryman, a Southern sympathizer who had organized soldiers to burn bridges in Maryland. Taney ruled that Lincoln's order violated Article 1, Section 9, of the U.S. Constitution, which gave only Congress the power to suspend habeas corpus. Lincoln ignored the ruling. Congress ratified the suspension in 1863.

Civil War scholars generally point to the large pockets of anti-war sentiment in the Union states as a justification for his wartime suspension of civil liberties. Today there are many "Confederate" Web sites which label Lincoln a "dictator" for these wartime acts."

Anyone notice a pattern of the suspension of rights of US citizens by Presidents during war....

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ May 12 2006, 03:56 PM) [snapback]254294[/snapback]</div>

I think what really alarmed the Dept. of Homeland Security was that this guy moved from Texas to Rhode Island.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ May 12 2006, 10:53 PM) [snapback]254529[/snapback]</div>

Godiva very poignant observation as always.

Unfortunately when one speaks about fascism people jump into the worst examples of Hitlerism, completely forgetting about Franco and Mussolini or long road of Hitler's struggle to obtain his power and influence.

The problem lies in luck of understanding what 'fascism' philosophy entices, most people think of fascism in terms of concentration camps or Endlösung der Judenfrage. In discussions when confronted most people forget about the RISE of fascism and it's propaganda machine from early 1920 and long road for it to evolve into culminating horrendous aspects that rendered themselves in the worst imaginable examples of fascism. A TWENTY YEARS span. At the same time only few will admit that 'fascismo' is what Mussolini once said a right-wing philosophy therefore a very broad definition that has been formulating itself for years. Italian fascism goes back to 19th century. I would suggest seeing a wonderful historical epic of Bernardo Bertolucci '1900' magnificent portrayal of birth of fascism.1900

Fascist propaganda is driven on FEAR, a constant reminder of FEAR; Goebbels used it in all of his speeches. Hitler has been yelling about inevitable Polish aggression for years to come prior 1939, what allowed him to build up his military prowess. The almost entire German population was fearful of Jews, Roma, Slavs, homosexuals simply by ongoing daily barrage of propaganda. Therefore average German persona would limit himself to any associations with stigmatized out of FEAR of prosecution. Fearful propaganda worked perfect, Germans were even scared of Poland, a country that had no incentive to attack Germany as it would have been suicidal militarily, Poles didn't have any proclivity for aggression whatsoever.

Fascism goes way beyond German, Spanish and Italian examples. It's also a form of totalitarianism, corporatism or other radical philosophies. Church hierarchies also resorted to fascism 'Quadragesimo Anno' a perfect example to confront a milestone in social evolution 'Rerum Novarum'. Let's not forget how fascism was deeply interwoven into theology by Hitler. Adolf himself used God as means of instilling FEAR in his relentless propaganda speeches. Not to mention that 'God was ALWAYS on Germany's side' a motto resonating daily in German press, church etc.

Current argumentum ad nauseam on the part of die-hard right-wingers are nothing else but same repetitions of slogans to the point of universal acceptance. It's like hearing and revisiting fascist propagandists from Falange, NSDAP, Vichy Regime, Estado Nuovo, the governments of Metaxas, Quisling or Fumimaro Konoe. List could become quite elaborate of those from the past.

Only few are awaking to the alarming bells and truly smell the coffee. Thanks Godiva and others.

 

The founding fathers of the United States put those rights in the Constitution because they wanted to prevent the sort of abuses of power that were commonplace in England at the time, and because they were wise judges of human character who understood that government officials are human beings, and there will always be some who will abuse power. The founding fathers therefore invented a brilliant system we call checks and balances, which denies to any one individual or branch of government the authority to act independently where individual rights are concerned.

Now, fanning the flames of hysteria and fear to achieve its goals, the Bush administration argues that if the administration itself accuses you of being a "terrorist," you lose the Constitutional right to be considered innocent until proven guilty, and you lose the right to be brought before a judge where you could provide evidence and arguments of your innocence.

Fortunately (so far!) the courts have ruled aginst the administration on this point. Our ancient and vibrant system of checks and balances is holding up. But the administration is doing its best to dismantle that system in a two-fold attack: fanning the flames of fear in a war of public propaganda against court involvement in its bogus "war on terror," and packing the supreme court, in an attempt to subvert the court system from the inside. Both are frightening trends.

There have been times in the past when the system has failed to protect the rights of innocent people, always aided by public hysteria over some supposed menace. In WW II thousands of innocent people were deprived of their property and jailed in concentration camps, of the same sort that Halliburton has just received a no-bid contract to construct for unspecified future use. In the 1950's thousands of people were placed on blacklists and denied employment, supposedly for being sympathetic to a political party that was completely legal.

Good sound police work can fight terrorists. How can we protect ourselves from a government gone out of control, that believes it has some sort of right to imprison people without ever allowing them to present their case before a judge? And who do they plan on putting in those prisons they want Halliburton to build?

I have nothing to hide. But being innocent does not protect you when the political climate is one of hysteria and fear.

I voted to keep my Constitutional rights.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ May 12 2006, 05:15 PM) [snapback]254336[/snapback]</div>

and when i sent a check to my credit card company it would post within a few days. that includes mailing time, processing time, etc. only a few days.

they aren't holding the funds at the bank because you are a suspected terrorist, they are ensuring that the check actually clears instead of bouncing. once the check clears, the money's available. there is no parallel there between having your credit card payment held because you're acting suspicious.

anyway, if they can use that "suspicious activity" label to do this, what next?

 

Yeah, and at the time the fouding fathers were sitting around contemplating such matters, the biggest threats at that time were basically how many canon balls and gun powder someone could horde, or getting a big enough group of people to march up on whatever seat of power and over throw it. They obviously, and reasonably so, did not forsee nuclear or biological weapons, of even such advanced technology that could easily be put to "evil" use...

Going in a slightly different direction, the whole "PRESUMED innocent until proven guilty" "protection" is BS, and nothing but window dressing to make you feel better. If the gov. wants to drag you in for something or other and throw you behind bars IT WILL, regardless of WHO'S in office. A case can always be made against some FIRST. Enough to drag you in, and let you rot in jail until you can "prove your innocence" otherwise LATER.

The long and the short of it, is I think the Constitution has been watered down so much, it's 1/10 as effective as the day it was written. It's a far different world out there than it was in 17xx.... So in many ways, Bush is right when he claims it's just a piece of paper....

 

"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

Danger signs of fascism:
1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism.
2. Disdain for the importance of human rights.
3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause.
4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism.
5. Rampant sexism.
6. A controlled mass media.
7. Obsession with national security.
8. Religion and ruling elite tied together.
9. Power of corporations protected.
10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated.
11. Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts.
12. Obsession with crime and punishment.
13. Rampant cronyism and corruption.
14. Fraudulent elections.

***********************

1.Instability of capitalist relationships or markets

2.The existence of considerable declassed social elements

3.The stripping of rights and wealth focused upon a specific segment of the population, specifically the middle class and intellectuals within urban areas as this is the group with the means, intelligence and ability to stop fascism if given the opportunity.

4.Discontent among the rural lower middle class (clerks, secretaries, white collar labor). Consistent discontent among the general middle and lower middle classes against the oppressing upper-classes (haves vs have-nots).

5.Hate: Pronounced, perpetuated and accepted public disdain of a specific group defined by race, origin, theology or association. (How often have you heard the words "Homo", "Gay" or "Liberal" used in such a manner?)

6.Greed: The motivator of fascism, which is generally associated with land, space or scarce resources in the possession of those being oppressed.

7.Organized Propaganda:

a) The creation of social mythology that venerates (creates saints of) one element of society while concurrently vilifying (dehumanizing) another element of the population through misinformation, misdirection and the obscuring of factual matter through removal, destruction or social humiliation, (name-calling, false accusations, belittling and threats).
Homosexuals
Liberals

B) The squelching of public debate not agreeing with the popular agenda via slander, libel, threats, theft, destruction, historical revisionism and social humiliation. Journalists in particular are terrorized if they attempt to publish stories contrary to the agenda.

***********************

"It is the absolute right of the State to supervise the formation of public opinion." Joseph Goebbels

"We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob." -Franklin Roosevelt

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such a school has no religious instruction and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith.... We need believing people."
-- Adolph Hitler, April 26, 1933

**********************

I'd say the camel has more than his nose in the tent.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ May 12 2006, 03:54 PM) [snapback]254293[/snapback]</div>

Rights are held by the people. The Government simply acknowledges a few of them in the Constitution.

 

War is Hell

Presidents of both parties have supended rights of the few to the protect the nation during war. Examples are Adams, Lincoln ( R), Wilson (D), Roosevelt (D) etc. Below, from PBS is and example from not that long ago.....

WORLD WAR II — JAPANESE INTERNMENT

Soon after the bombing of Pear Harbor, President Roosevelt, signed Executive Order 9066, which authorized the military to remove Japanese-Americans from America's West Coast. The removal was designed to protect military bases and manufacturing plants from "Fifth Column" sabotage or Japanese attack.

In this case it was not foreign nationals who were moved into camp, but also American citizens of Japanese descent. In total 110,000 persons of Japanese ancestry were relocated from the West Coast to 10 American concentration camps in seven states: California, Wyoming, Idaho, Utah, Arizona, Colorado and Arkansas. The relocated consisted of both the Issei, first-generation immigrants who were barred from U.S. citizenship, and their children, the Nisei, born in this country as U. S. citizens. Two-thirds of those incarcerated were U.S. citizens. Those citizens were forced to sell their businesses, homes and farms at rock-bottom prices — they lost their hold on their American lives and citizenship.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ May 13 2006, 02:04 PM) [snapback]254783[/snapback]</div>

An excellent list. Might I add another technique of fascism - the use of "false flag" secret service operations in order to provide a trigger and justification for:
1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism.
2. Disdain for the importance of human rights.
3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause.
4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism.
5. Rampant sexism.
6. A controlled mass media.
7. Obsession with national security.
8. Religion and ruling elite tied together.
9. Power of corporations protected.
10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated.
11. Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts.
12. Obsession with crime and punishment.
13. Rampant cronyism and corruption.
14. Fraudulent elections.

(And thank you for your kind remarks about librarians. We try.)