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Argon

Discussion in 'Prime Main Forum (2017-2022)' started by mr88cet, Jun 17, 2018.

  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Ok, replace your tank with a Gen-1 or Gen-2 bladder tank.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  2. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    you don't need Argon as Nitrogen would be fine...but there is no way to get it in there.
    Nitrogen blanketing is the standard inerting technique, assuming you wanted to do that.
    but oxygen isn't the big concern, water/moisture is due to the E10 fuel.

    Thought you were going to say for tires, but Ar leaks faster than N2, but apparently years ago argon was used in high end car tires as it is heavier and some felt was smoother ride for that reason.
     
    #22 wjtracy, Jun 18, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2018
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  3. mr88cet

    mr88cet Senior Member

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    Nitrogen occurred to us (my sister and me in that conversation) as well, but N2 is not as chemically inert as is Argon. Probably cheaper though, and inert enough.

    That being said though, I largely concur that this is a fanciful discussion at best: Not a huge concern; more of a curious suggestion.
     
    #23 mr88cet, Jun 18, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2018
  4. mr88cet

    mr88cet Senior Member

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    Interesting: I didn’t realize they used such a tank.
     
  5. David Beale

    David Beale Senior Member

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    One problem with the Argon idea is, what is the weight of the hydrocarbon fuel molecules? Heavier or lighter than Argon? The tank is full of them. BTW, "over time" the Argon won't mix with air. It stays separated. Which is what can make it dangerous. It can build up in our lungs, suffocating us if breathed in. It's more common than helium and probably less expensive, but helium is used in most deep diving mixtures in spite of the voice "distortion" because the Argon can settle in the lungs. Unless you're military and get special training.

    Just burn a half tank every six months or so and you'll be fine. Gasoline isn't -that- expensive, yet. ;)
     
  6. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    Argon is 1% of air, which is where we get it. It mixes well.
     
  7. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    If it separated, then the lower about 1% of Earth's atmospheric mass would an Argon layer. Life at sea level up to about 250 elevation would suffocate.

    The meaning of 'over time' depends on the context. Gases always diffuse and mix, but initially separated gases don't mix fast enough to prevent suffocation.
     
    #27 fuzzy1, Jun 18, 2018
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  8. bresna

    bresna Active Member

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    I was under the impression that the Prius Prime gas tank was pressurized. Would this pressurizing system be adversely affected by having Argon in there? Wouldn't the pressure also force the Argon and air to mix faster? On top of that, when you're driving, gas is sloshing around in there. No way to avoid oxygen exposure then.
     
  9. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    A friend brought a 1975 Chrysler that sat for ten years. It too fired right up on the hold gasoline. A short time later, it bent a push rod or two from the deposit build up on the valves.

    I've regularly used last seasons gas to start up equipment at the beginning of the season without issue. I dump the gas out of the tank or let the stuff run dry at the end of the season, and I put a little bit(an ounce or two) or rubbing alcohol(91%), acetone, or fuel injector cleaner in with that first fill.

    All modern cars have pretty well sealed gas tanks. That's why gas lasts longer in a Volt's tank vs. a lawnmower's, and why GM said regular is fine in the gen2 Volt after calling for premium in the gen1. Fuel degradation was less than what they had cautiously planned for in the beginning., and that is likely why Toyota feels okay with letting the fuel sit longer in the Prime vs. the PiP.

    That sealing and evaporative emission controls would give be pause before trying this with a gas or dry ice. The rate of addition of the gas, particularly by the dry ice method might pose a damage risk to them, or you will vent hydrocarbons out of the tank.

    I wouldn't worry about fuel oxidation. If it becomes a problem, you should have bought a BEV. If Sta-bil makes you feel better, I suggest just adding a 1/2 ounce diesel per gallon.
     
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  10. mczouav

    mczouav Member

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    Essence or gasoline is a mix of the lowest distillation fractions of petroleum after cracking. With time the lightest fractions, or the ones with the lowest boiling point, will evaporate. This is the main problem i believe with old fuel. The heavier fractions of distillates remain, and the fuel performance is affected. With the addition of ethanol up to 10%, the possibility of having a bit of water in the fuel is also possible (azeotrope composition), and i believe this is a problem in extreme cold temperatures. I would not worry about oxydation, but rather evaporation of the lighter fractions... Even better, don t worry, be happy, the prius does it all for the best automagically...

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
  11. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    The loss of those lighter factions leads to a drop in octane rating. That is part of why GM called for premium gas for the gen1 Volt; worry the regular octane might drop to an octane too to safely run in the engine for a few people.

    There is water in the fuel. There was water in station tanks before the switch to E10; Heet has been on store shelves for quite some time. The main concern with it mixed with ethanol, is in the event that more water gets into the fuel. Too much and you get phase separation; the water and alcohol drop out of the gasoline, and they sit in the tank like oil and water. I had it happen to the lawn mower when I put in acetone that was too wet. The fix is to add more alcohol. At E30 and higher, phase separation isn't an issue anymore.
     
  12. jzchen

    jzchen Newbie!

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    If you are worried about oxidation normal air is about 20% O2, and 70 % N2, which is inert. Keep the gas tank full and be at peace. Little air left in the tank and it’s only 20% O2. I have cars sit for years and just keep the gas tanks full. They start right up as long as the batteries are kept on maintainers.
     
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  13. Since2002

    Since2002 Senior Lurker

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    Assuming he has another car that uses the same octane, he could just pump it straight from the Prime into the other car. Even if the gas has gotten slightly stale (unlikely after just three months) or is the wrong seasonal blend, we're only talking a couple of gallons. Assuming the other car is at say 3/4 tank then the two "stale" gallons will mix in and shouldn't cause a a problem, and presumably will get burned off pretty quickly anyway once it's in the gasser.

    Just need to be careful siphoning, probably safer to do it in the driveway than in an enclosed garage. And of course need to have enough EV range to make it to the gas station for the next two gallon "fillup".

    EDIT - then again I'm not sure how well siphoning works on modern cars. Especially the last two gallons.
     
    #33 Since2002, Jun 21, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2018
  14. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    Can't really siphon anymore (Prii anyways) they have all kinds of obstructions and turns.
     
  15. schja01

    schja01 One of very few in Chicagoland

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    Amazon has several siphon/pumps designed just for this purpose. Plastic tubing and a squeeze pump mechanism. Fairly inexpensive too. I never was a fan of sucking gasoline into a tube with my mouth.
     
  16. Since2002

    Since2002 Senior Lurker

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    Well I guess he could turn the car upside down and shake out the last 2 gallons! ;) However I think there is a valve that would prevent that, designed to prevent gas spills during rollover collisions.

    So it all comes back to having to use up the old gas. In theory the best way to do that is simply run it until it's dry, of course making sure to do that within EV range of a gas station. That would get rid of all or nearly all of the old gas. However it may not be good for the car to run out of gas. I know Bob Wilson has done it and his car didn't implode :). However people have said that it can be bad for the fuel system when a car runs out of gas, possibly leading to expensive repairs. Although I'm trying to think when I have ever heard of someone having car problems after they ran out of gas. Probably it has happened, but maybe it's somewhat rare, and might depend on the particular car.

    But it would be nice to know for sure, because just like we drain as much old oil out as we can when we change oil, when "changing" gas it seems like you would want to burn off as much of the old gas as you can before adding new. But that's no good if by solving one minor problem you create another larger problem.