Article about EV Charging

Discussion in 'Prime Main Forum (2017-Current)' started by m8547, Jul 29, 2019.

  1. m8547

    m8547 Senior Member

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    This is one of the better articles I've read about EV charging. Most EV Charging Infrastructure Is Wasted Due To Lack Of New Thinking

    The author makes good points about how public L2 stations don't really make sense. But I don't think I agree with their vision of robotic charging lots. And I think there will continue to be a place for L2 charging to serve very cheap or used EVs that don't have quite enough range.

    What they should have done is put chargers at stores and restaurants where people are likely to spend time anyway. Instead, around here chargers are in weird places like at parks, or in a mega strip mall complex far from most of the stores.
     
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  2. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    That's why I have stated tax-credits for vehicles should not get renewed. If there is to be a next batch, let it be for home upgrades.

    Keep in mind, most households can just barely support 1 vehicle. So, there's a very real limitation that will holdback market growth later.
     
  3. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Good point. Although chargers at malls can be a draw (like free wifi was back in the day).

    Locally, chargers are located at malls, community centres, parks (the larger ones), tourist attractions and movie theatres.

    DCFC ones are scattered throughout the city but there are some located at supermarkets.

    Airport long term has L2 too although you'd think a L1 is sufficient if you're parking in the long term lot since you'd easily get a good charge out of 120 hours of charge (e.g. 5 days)
     
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  4. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    what we need is more long range tesla competition, so companies will think about fee for charging stations in strategic locations

    tesla has ingeniously suppressed charging competition by providing their own network.

    by the time someone else makes a decent long range bev, it will be difficult to build out high powered charging stations because tesla drivers won't need them
     
  5. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    That makes it sound like it was part of the plan, when Tesla just wanted to sell an EV that the established car companies refused to do. They knew a charging network was needed for success, and that they couldn't rely on third parties building it.

    They have some commercial advantage over the independent networks, but then they are willing to allow others access to their network, if exchange for those others in helping to support it.
     
  6. m8547

    m8547 Senior Member

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    I would definitely be more likely to shop/ eat at businesses and restaurants with free or reasonably priced charging, but I can only think of one! it's pretty pathetic. There are a few places with EVGo chargers, but at over $0.50/kwh for L2 charging, it's not worth it.

    Looking around for businesses on Plugshare, I found Walgreens, Sonic, Ikea (EVGo) Whole Foods, and another grocery store like Whole Foods. I'm not likely to go to any of those, and if I do go to Whole Foods it's probably 20 minutes at most, so not even worth plugging in.

    When people ask me about EVs, Tesla is the only one I recommend because of the charging network. Sure with any of them you plug in at home everyday. But with Tesla it's the only one that you can practically charge somewhere else if you need to.

    In the mountains in Colorado there are almost no charging stations. A round trip from my house is around 200 miles, so that's pushing it for all but the longest range EVs. But there are enough Tesla superchargers that you won't get stuck if you don't stray off the highway.

    Also, something I never considered is that I-70, the main highway from the mountains to the front range, closes all the time. There are crashes that cause major delays every weekend. Rock falls, mud slides, and avalanches sometimes close parts of the highway for hours to days. I can think of two or three times that crane trucks rolled over (what is wrong with all these cranes?). For a while the top result searching for CDOT Twitter was a story about a pig truck that crashed, and the road was closed because there were pigs all over the road (I think the pigs survived). And recently a truck crashed and dropped watermelons or something like that all over the road. It's actually kind of comical how bad it is, which might be the only thing nice about having a 4+ hour delay on the way home from a weekend trip. There are few alternate routes, and they are a lot longer than taking I-70.

    Electrify America is supposedly making another fast charging network, but it can't get here soon enough for the next generation of EVs.
     
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  7. jb in NE

    jb in NE Senior Member

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    I would shop at any business that offers me free gas for my car.
     
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  8. smyles

    smyles Active Member

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    Meh, untill EV charging is similar to gas, i.e. couple of minutes yield full tank or something close, it's all very niche. A typical grocery store visit is what, 5-15 mins? - in non-fast charging world, it's few cents/couple of miles, so why bother.

    I can see why most of free charges here are seemingly permanently occupied by Teslas/Leafs/Bolts - at least for them it's worth the hassle, given the capacity.
     
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  9. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    You'd have a very different attitude if you actually tried it.

    Arriving at the grocery store with an empty battery turns into enough electricity to get home in just 10 minutes.
     
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  10. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    imagine if ford had built out proprietary gas stations with cars in the early years?

    i wonder what the landscape would look like now
     
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  11. jb in NE

    jb in NE Senior Member

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    Maybe if you live within walking distance of the store.
     
  12. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    We'd all be driving coal powered steam cars.
     
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  13. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    How far away do you think local grocery stores are? If you are only spending 10 minutes there, it is clearly not a purchase of many items.

    See this real-world example... which appears to not have attached to the post. Anywho, it shows my 8-minute session this weekend delivered 0.43 kWh of electricity. That works out to around 2.2 miles.
     
    #13 john1701a, Jul 29, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2019
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  14. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    <popcorn>
     
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  15. smyles

    smyles Active Member

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    You know, your arguments remind what I've heard from users of Palm, Blackberry and all those electronic organizers of the 90s. When asked why? they'd always say how easy it was to use them, "you just plug this special cable, wait, type in this uber-complex command code, synchronize, update, reboot...and voila, you've updated someone's phone #!". Oh, and you had to use a $39.99 easy to loose stylus and nothing else.

    Cliff notes: the hassle of constant plugging/unplugging is unacceptable for the majority of mankind.
     
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  16. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    That analogy doesn't work, because doing that was a requirement.

    For a PHEV, it's not. It's entirely a benefit. If you don't want the bother, you don't have to.
     
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  17. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    And yet the majority of mankind is now plugging and unplugging smart phones that are descendants of those Palms and Blackberries.
     
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  18. smyles

    smyles Active Member

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    Mankind has been charging phones since their inception. But it always been a daily (=nightly) affair. Now, imagine you're asking consumers to plug their phones at every store, restaurant, etc., and not just where they are, but walk to a specific location, may be even wait for it to free up, and often pay the tripple of what it cost at home.
     
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  19. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    There's nothing to imagine. No one will ask that. Having the option to recharge at a location is a convenience, something to entice people to stop there. A more appropriate analogy could be Wi-Fi. Originally, it was had a time-restriction or cost/membership of some sort. Now, it's common and usually free. Customers were not required to use it, nor was there any particular enforcement of how or when.

    So if you are going to see a movie, eat a meal, or shop for awhile, that choice of plugging in being available could make a difference of where you go. There is no requirement or expectation of charger use.
     
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  20. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Who is asking people to charge their car at every place they stop? How about I claim people are getting gas everyday. It is all strawmen.

    Like phones, cars get just charged once at home.
    Like cars, phones sometimes need a charge away from home. There is a wide range of back up batteries for just that. Businesses and public places have also made their outlets available for charging; some even have chargers available. Booster batteries just aren't a practical option for cars.

    So what if a public charger costs more. Bottled water, soda, and snacks all cost more at a convenience store than a supermarket. The price of gas can change based on convenience of location; the rest stops on I95 cost more than a station off an exit. A plug in could be fueled with just the cheap electricity at home, while getting cheaper gas could be more of a hassle for other cars.
     
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