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ATF fluid changes ARE Required.

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Care, Maintenance & Troubleshooting' started by Bill Norton, Dec 15, 2012.

  1. edthefox5

    edthefox5 Senior Member

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    [QUOTE=" How is the TAN number for a brand new lubricant explained?[/QUOTE]

    TAN is calculated by how much potassium hydrocloride is needed to neutralize the amount of acid detected. Acid is detected in everything including new oil. But a virgin oil TAN report is somewhat meaningless as that minute amount of acid will be burned up.
    If you look at my D6 report on the 30K D6 you will see the Tan increasing. They alert you to that by going from a green good to I think was yellow caution. This is very understandable and I pulled a 30K report to see how much micro combustion was going on and if it was affecting the fluid. I wanted to see how long a pure 100% poly base stock fluid would last in this trans.

    D6 is a high performance fluid that requires a high performance change interval. The payoff is excellent wear numbers. That's what I'm after.
    But D6 is not designed to put in the trans and forget. If thats what you want to do you are much better off using WS as it has a life extension anti acid pack on board.


    Case in point is the VOLT uoa. That car is showing excellent wear numbers and the casual observer would feel very good about using the factory fluid. I still would have like to see the TAN report and how it's doing.
    Without that I do not have the full story. That factory fluid may have a poor anti acid pack so it might was well use a high performance poly anyway. But I doubt it. New factory fluids are pretty good with life packs. There all going to "lifetime" fluid.
    But unless a TAN is done on that "lifetime" fluid you'll never know if there full of you know what though.

    I guess I should have been more succinct in my original post. My point was there's another UOA company out there that will provide a TAN report for free where Blackstone charges extra. If your going through the hassle of a UOA get the full story.

    We will never know how well the WS acid pack is doing as I have never seen a WS UOA on this site with a TAN report at any mileage. Love to see a full 100K WS report.
     
  2. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

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    ed,
    Thanks for the briefing on this subject. I will be sending my next sample to the UOA service you recommended.
     
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  3. Cooterk

    Cooterk Junior Member

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    Thanks for this thread, and love this forum - I just did mine this weekend @67k. It was pretty easy, the only minor issue is breaking the plugs lose. Hit my hand pretty good on the cv joint. Couldn't get my breaker in there easily so had to put a pipe on the ratchet. I did remove the splash shield so that took about 10 mins otherwise it would have been about 30 mins in total. I was really surprised by how dark the fluid was, it was black, not even a little red. I will post a pic tomorrow. Bought the HF pump and it worked great. $5.

    Couple funny pieces of info. My service advisor at the dealer would not do it! I tried pushing and he had no clue, kep saying it's lifetime fluid and that it would be a waste and boy was he adamant - almost confrontational about it. I didn't feel like arguing and it would have been a fight to get the right price....plus, I wanted to start Diy'ing this thing anyway. Then I go back to parts to get the fluid and the parts dude immediately starts off saying "do not touch the transmission with ws fluid." He goes...."I've had three tundras with ruined trans this month." I said, you ever see an issue with a prius? No. These guys have no clue and it's really scary to be honest. It's the confidence that scares me the most, he basically said to me in other words that I was an idiot and to not blame him for blowing up my car. 25% off parts coupon honored though..... Oil filter, crush washer, 4 qts ws and the total was 32 bucks. Add in the $25 for Mobil 1 jug at Walmart and this was 50% cheaper than my last oil change alone. Not bad!

    Again, many thanks for all the contributions on the site, keep it going.
     
  4. fbelly714

    fbelly714 New Member

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    My eyes hurt i spent two days reading this thread to see a pciture of the used modded drain plugs with magnets but haven't seen any. i'm going to change my atf but can someone link to some posts with the pictures of magnetic plugs with the buildup?
     
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  5. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    Don't let the lack of a magnetic drain plug stop you. That's secondary to getting it changed.
     
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  6. Cooterk

    Cooterk Junior Member

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    As promised. Look at the difference.
     

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  7. JC91006

    JC91006 Senior Member

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    looks delicious.....like fruit punch in a drink container.
     
  8. Blajoie

    Blajoie Junior Member

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    My 2012 prius three is at ~44K miles.
    Decided to change the motor oil and do a transmission drain / refill today.

    For the transmission fluid:
    Bought 4 qts WS fluid and 2 x crush washers from my local toyota dealership this morning.
    They charged $15.50/qt! Total was $67!
    Next time, I am ordering online...

    I drained out about ~3.5 qts. and filled with ~4 qts. of fresh toyota WS fluid.
    Old fluid was dark, but still had a bit of red in it.
    After adding the 4 qts, the fluid did not overfill and run out of the fill bolt hole.
    (but I figure it was close enough)

    Also put some new crush washers on the drain/fill bolts.

    Was not too difficult to do.
    Ended up only taking out the 3 clips to access the oil plug bolt area (instead of removed all of the underbody plastic).

    Overall, I am glad I decided to change the fluid now and not wait until 100K+.
    I think every 50K or so is just about right.
     
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  9. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

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    Good Job !!!

    Except for the "$15.50/qt." part, for just simple ATF.
    Wally's sells an ATF that is WS compliant.

    And once again, the Wonderful Manual does not tell you to change it at 100K miles.
     
  10. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    Usually things are more expensive in Canada; what's going on here? My last purchase, through the dealership, Toyota ATF-WS was $9.32, in Canadian dollars, per liter.

    Considering how infrequently you do this, no big deal. But next time you need any sort of parts, I'd try a few other dealerships too, if practical. Or maybe it's a region thing?
     
  11. working1

    working1 Active Member

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    Changed the ATF for the first time @81K miles. I only drained out 3.0 quarts and refilled with 3.25 quarts. No fluid drained from the fill plug. Beginning to wonder if these are filled with bare minimum amount of ATF at the factory.
     
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  12. Yakoma

    Yakoma Active Member

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    I got it for the same price as Mendel down here in ATL from the local dealer. You got gouged.
     
  13. exstudent

    exstudent Senior Member

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    Finally, the long delayed Gold Plug magnetic transaxle drain plug picture, on a young transaxle.

    NEW warranty transaxle replacement installed 2/2011 @ 99,114 miles. Hindsight, should have purchased the Goldplug at this time and have the dealer install it on this new transaxle.

    1st transaxle ATF drain & fill, w/ Gold Plug transaxle drain plug installed on 2/2013 @ 114,638 miles [Δ 15,524 miles]
    No original image from this 1st drain/fill. Borrowed an image from "speakup76" transaxle drain/fill; image appears to be the same, just a little bit more gray ferrous "paste," due to this being the 1st drain/fill. Minimal effort was required to wipe off the gray ferrous "paste." OEM transaxle drain plug could barley support the 10mm hex key socket.
    transaxle OEM mag drain plug (speakup76).jpg OEM ATF drain plug.JPG

    2nd transaxle ATF drain & fill; 10/2014 @ 129,951 miles [Δ 15,313 miles]
    Lots of ferrous particles captured by the Goldplug transaxle drain plug. Considerable effort (time and rags) was required to wipe off the ferrous particles due to this strong magnet. Hindsight, I should have weighed the Goldplug before wiping and after wiping to get an approximate amount of iron removed for trivia's sake.
    Goldplug transaxle drain plug.JPG Goldplug transaxle darin plug cleaned.JPG

    Goldplug transaxle drain plug easily holding the tools used to remove this bolt ( 1/2 ratchet w/ 1 inch socket): 1lb 11.3oz (774 grams). It probably could have held more weight.
    1lb 11.3oz (774 grams).JPG

    ATF-WS comparison after 15,313 miles (drain & fill #2): Old (left) vs New (right).
    ATF-WS; Old vs New.JPG

    I saved some of the old fluid for analysis. Will report the findings later. Will be interesting to see if this will show a lot less wear than Professor Eddenberg's study over 3 drain/fills w/ oil analysis. Study Link.

    Goldplug also makes a magnetic engine oil drain plug for the Prius. I installed this on on 2/2013 @ 114,638 miles; very little ferrous material to wipe off at the 5k mile oil change intervals. Probably would be a different story if I had this installed when new. Pictured is the engine oil drain plug holding 13.1 oz/371 grams (3/8" ratchet and 14mm socket).
    GP oil drain plug.JPG

    Goldplug can also make any drain bolt/plug for any application (ie generators, mowers, pressure washers, etc); they just need the bolt size and thread pitch. Goldplug is currently charging $18.99 for the Gen3 plugs (enging or transaxle). May want to buy aluminum crush washers at this same time since you are already paying or shipping, unless you can find it cheaper elsewhere.

    Priuschat member "Rude person's" makes magnetic drain plugs too (engine and transaxle). Contact him if you are interested.
     
    #473 exstudent, Dec 30, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2015
  14. CR94

    CR94 Senior Member

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    There would be very little such ferrous stuff circulating in the oil of a used engine in good condition, and the oil filter is likely to capture it before the magnet can anyway. Transmissions are a different story.
     
  15. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Details?
    FYI, I enjoyed seeing the photo of your 30k mile oil. Do you remember any unusual smell?

    Bob Wilson
     
  16. ETP

    ETP 2021 Prime(Limit),Highlander HYB Plat,B52-D,G,F,H

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    It took 3 trips to the dealer to get mine changed as they told the wife it was not needed and then they gave me the run around until I left the second time and then I ripped them a new one on feed backs. Finally they changed the fluid. Well they said they did.
    My feedback was give the customer a hug and thank them for wanting a car serviced. Tell them all customers should be like them. They tried to wave me off for an oil change that was not due.

    Wonder how good that 15 minute alignment was?
     
  17. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    If you need to BEG to get things done, basic things, and then leave less than convinced it even got done, it's time to DIY.
     
  18. edthefox5

    edthefox5 Senior Member

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    My 07 trans fluid at 5,000 looked very dark. Changed again at 30,000 and not so bad still had alot of red in it and did a UOA. Changed again at 65,000 and looked very very good so good didn't bother a UOA. So...first change should be pretty soon like at 5,000 miles and then maybe 50,000 intervals. Its like most cars with a manual trans and front wheel drive.

    Its all hypoid differential gear break in.

    But based on Bill Nortons pictures it looks like the G3 trans is harder on the fluid than a G2.
    So at least get that break in oil out of there.
     
    frodoz737 likes this.
  19. CR94

    CR94 Senior Member

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    Most cars with transverse engines, manual transmission, and front wheel drive do not have hypoid gears, as far as I know. Helical gears don't make the demands on oil that hypoid gears do, because there's a lot less sliding of gear teeth against each other. Cars with front drive, manual transmissions, and "north-south" engines do often (or maybe always?) use hypoid gears in the final drive.
     
  20. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

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    I noticed this also. It may be that the spider gears within the differential of the transaxle might be classified as 'hypoid'. But those only move against each other when the steering wheel is turned off center.
    During straight ahead driving with a typical front wheel drive there is no 90° change in direction of torque like in a typical north-south 'Rear End'. No wiping/sliding motion at the gear teeth.

    And thus ATF does not have that stink of 'Rear End/Differential Gear Lube', which is needed for typical hypoid gears.

    The Moral here is: Change the ATF it if you want a long life Prius.

    Also, is the 2015 Prius Owner's Manual still NOT talking about this important preventative maintenance item?

    If so, Shame on Toyota....
     
    #480 Bill Norton, Jan 1, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2015