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B Mode, Battery Charge and Charge Rate

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Technical Discussion' started by jerlands, Oct 24, 2020.

  1. jerlands

    jerlands Member

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    the engine does rev up while in B Mode when the battery reaches green (fully charged.) but it seems to me this would also happen if a heavy, sudden load were placed on a coasting engine... like MG1 being run in reverse (same direction as used when backing up.) I'd have to use techstream to observe the rpm when this happens but that is inconvenient for me right now...

    this video clearly shows freewheeling in the Prius transaxle... Prius (2nd Gen) P112 Hybrid Transaxle (eCVT) Operation
    so looking at that video... if while in B Mode and if reversing current were applied to MG1 it would both brake MG2 (the wheels) and also pump the engine (turn it as though starting?)
    MG2:MG1 gear ratio is 2.3:1... MG1 to ICE is 1:1 (I believe.)
     
    #41 jerlands, Oct 26, 2020
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 29, 2020
  2. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    You're getting the overall application about right, but you're still missing the idea that these ratios can only be understood as fixed and static when one of the 3 elements is somehow held still. As soon as the third one moves, the ratios change.
     
  3. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    The one dependable anchor point in the shifty sands is the division of torque. If you see 1.0 at the planet carrier shaft, it's 0.28 at the sun gear shaft and 0.72 at the ring gear, always and whatever else is going on.

    Speeds vary, and power varies (because it is torque times speed, and the speeds vary). The speeds of all three components will always lie on some straight line drawn on the nomograph.
     
  4. jerlands

    jerlands Member

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    well... as far as those numbers go... one the nomograph... I can't find any of those relations... it might seem what you've given is a division of torque from the engine?...
     
    #44 jerlands, Oct 26, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2020
  5. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    The nomograph shows relations of RPM. Other discussions that have established the 0.28 and 0.72 torque split have proceeded straight from the geometries and tooth counts of the gears. But of course, reality being somewhat consistent, you can reveal them in the nomograph if you're interested.

    Because the torque split is what's constant, it will be the same under all conditions. Usefully, that includes the conditions where MG1 isn't moving, or where MG2 isn't moving, so you can look at the controlling equations in the top right of that nomograph, and put zeros in convenient places to make derivations easy.

    Say you take the first equation shown. If you pick a moment when MG2 RPM is zero, at that moment MG1 RPM is 3.6 times ICE RPM. At that moment this is a simple one-input one-output gear system where the effect on torque is just the inverse of what happens to RPM. So what's 1 / 3.6? Hmm ... about 0.28.

    You can do the same with the last equation, and pick a moment when MG1 isn't turning, which leaves you with ICE = 2.6*MG2/3.6, or MG2 RPM = 3.6/2.6 times ICE RPM. Again inverting to look at torque, what's 2.6 / 3.6? Hmm ... about 0.72.

    Finally, whatever torque the engine produces only has those two places to go ... if it is going 28% to the sun gear shaft and 72% to the ring, well, those two had better add up to 100%. Hmm ... yup, looks like they do.
     
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  6. jerlands

    jerlands Member

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    the equations given are how they plotted their graph... correct?... so you should be able to look at the graph to see the same relation... if you look at a point where MG1=0 then ICE=3500 and MG2=5000... that equates to ICE=.7 ... MG2=1
     
  7. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    'bout as close as you're likely to get by eyeballing a graph, right? If you pick MG1=0 and ICE=3500 then "5000" for MG2 is pretty close to the actual 4846, and ".7" for the ratio is pretty close to the actual .72....
     
  8. jerlands

    jerlands Member

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    then I was confused about what you said... .28=MG1, 1=ICE, .72=MG2 but what is meant is the ratio between ICE and MG2 =.72 and the ratio between the ICE and MG1=.28?

    In other words... you're saying that ICE is the whole pie... 100% and 72% is going to MG2 and 28% to MG1?

    isn't torque a function of force? the force on MG2 for instance is - gravity + electrical and mechanical inputs to it.. the resulting torque has a wide range of possibilities...

    all things flow from high to low... torque and power are the same... they are not fixed... power will follow the path of least resistance...
     
    #48 jerlands, Oct 26, 2020
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 29, 2020
  9. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Yes, the planetary gear set distributes torque in fixed proportion: whatever torque is on the input shaft from engine flywheel to planet carrier, 28% of that torque appears on the stubby splines between the sun gear and MG1.

    The other 72% appears—it pays to speak carefully here—at the ring gear, through its internal teeth. That's the force with which the planet teeth are pushing it around, times its effective radius.

    You'll notice I didn't say MG2, even though I did say the ring gear and MG2 is directly connected to it (or through a reduction gear in some models). That's because there's also something else directly connected to the ring gear: the output to the final drive and wheels.

    Of the 72% of engine torque that reaches the ring gear, you can't say offhand how much MG2 is seeing and how much the final drive is seeing: the torque at the ring gear is the difference of those two, but they can be anywhere from nearly the same to very different.

    A couple of limiting examples: (1) you're driving electrically at 30 mph, engine stopped. MG2 is supplying all the torque needed to move the car. The torque seen by all the components of the PSD is diddly. Strictly, the engine output shaft is seeing diddly, the sun gear splines are seeing 0.28✕diddly, with 0.72✕diddly at the ring gear teeth. MG1 is spinning around at −4500 RPM or so, but essentially freely, at 0.28✕diddly torque, accounting for a negligible amount of power (−4500✕0.28✕diddly).

    (2) you're cruising down the highway at 50 MPH using 27 HP from the engine (71 foot-pounds of torque at 2000 RPM). MG1 is barely turning at all and accounting for none of that power (0.28✕71 foot-pounds✕0 RPM, no power), and the ring gear is mechanically getting 0.72✕71 foot-pounds✕2854 RPM, all 27 HP from the engine), and all of that is going to the wheels to move the car. MG2 is spinning along for the ride at the same 2854 RPM, but diddly torque. In this condition the electrical power path is insignificant (MG1 20 foot-pounds✕diddly RPM = diddly = MG2 2854 RPM✕diddly foot-pounds).

    It's kind of a funny fact that direct mechanical connections, as seen between the ring gear, MG2, and the final drive) constrain the RPMs of the connected components to be the same, but don't enforce any particular apportionment of torque. If you're riding a tandem bicycle, both your pedal cranks go around at the same speed, whether you are both putting in the same effort, or you are busting your butt and your partner is kind of letting their feet go around.

    By contrast, a gear train like the PSD constrains the torques at each component into fixed proportions, but their speeds are allowed to vary.

    Each arrangement fixes the apportionment of one of the factors of power, while allowing the other factor to vary, so in either case it is variable just how the power is split between components.

    Messages crossed while I was writing this one. As already mentioned above, torque and power are not the same: power is the product (torque ✕ RPM). Taking units into account, if power is in HP and torque in foot-pounds, power = torque ✕RPM / 5252. If you're in doubt of that here, there are better resources around than PriusChat to clear it up for you.
     
    #50 ChapmanF, Oct 27, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2020
  10. jerlands

    jerlands Member

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    .28 and .72... in my mind... are just the limits of the range of possibility... can we deliver 100% of the ICE power to MG1?... no.. seemingly you're limited to 28%... and so with MG2... can the ICE deliver 100% of it's power to MG2?... no... only 72%... the range is between 0 and 72%... .72 and .28 are mechanical limits... but that doesn't mean the limits are always met...
     
    #50 jerlands, Oct 27, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2020
  11. jerlands

    jerlands Member

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    the planetary gear set (split power device) is simply a balancing beam... it balances the input and output forces to equate into some meaningful summary... MG2 is only coupled to the ICE through MG1... that is why you can coast in the Prius...
     
  12. jerlands

    jerlands Member

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    what I was trying to imply is... torque and power behave the same... torque is not strictly a mechanical property... in fact... the only mechanical property involved is the sine of the angle... the vector force... but it is the force that is the function of torque... everything else is fixed...

    look at power a different way... P=IR ... power = current multiplied by resistance... if you decrease resistance then what happens?... well... a couple things could happen... either your current goes way up or your power goes way down...

    if you look at the nomograph none of the relations between rpm's show any correlation between .28 and .72... at least... not proportionally as in 28% of ICE to MG1 or 72% of ICE to MG2... so why is that?... or am I missing something?... the nomograph shows states of equilibrium... how often is your vehicle in a state of equilibrium?... flat open highway?... what happens between those states of equilibrium?...

    why doesn't the ICE move the vehicle when it starts up?... it's because MG1 has to be doing some useful work that creates resistance... if there is no resistance then the ICE will just spin and spin... following the path of least resistance... MG1... the sun gear will just spin and the planetary will simply revolve around the ring...
     
    #52 jerlands, Oct 27, 2020
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 29, 2020
  13. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    If you were analyzing a resistive electrical circuit you would want to use an identity for power in terms of the electrical values you could measure; an identity in terms of RPM and foot-pounds would be of little use to you there. You would also want to get the identity right: P = I²R, the squared matters (otherwise you're just restating Ohm's law and talking about volts, not power).

    Likewise you wouldn't bring an electrical identity for power to an analysis of a gear train.

    Luckily, a Prius lets you have both kinds of fun. A gear train with motors! Just use each identity where it makes sense.

    At this point, yes; we're slipping into rehashing what's already been covered.

    Because the gear train apportions torque in an unchanging breakdown, a graph of that would be really boring. The nomograph shows the relationships of RPM, which can vary. Post #50 already showed how you can unearth the .28, .72 torque split from the governing equations used to make the graph.

    They hold "at equilibrium", meaning the "equilibrium" where the forces between gear teeth are equal and opposite and the gears are moving as those forces dictate ... meaning, at all times when you aren't hearing fragging sounds from inside the transmission.
     
  14. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    Your mind quite clearly is scrambling torque and power here. That is contributing to your misunderstandings.

    Those 28% and 72% numbers are for torque only. You seriously misunderstand them when you try to apply those same figures to power.

    And they are not "just the limits of the range of possibility". Apart from small friction losses, they are fixed constants of the machine.

    It needs to apply torque to its shaft, so that the other two shafts, and thus the drive wheels, can also have torque.
     
  15. jerlands

    jerlands Member

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    torque is a function of FORCE... that is it... everything else is fixed... like the gear ratio... the forces vary unless equilibrium is reached...the nomograph shows static states... states of equilibrium...

    first.. power is power... I can take the formula for voltage and convert it into H.P.
    equilibrium is a static state... meaning it isn't changing... that's what the graph shows... but that is rarely the case unless you're always running a flat open highway... torque is a function of FORCE... that's all there is to it... and the forces will vary unless a state of balance... or equilibrium is reached... between those transitional periods as to what is happening seems to be the question... when in B mode and you have your foot off the gas... what is going on with the engine?... what is going on with MG1?... what is going on with MG2? the engine is in starvation mode (no fuel,) MG1 seems to acting against MG2 and also pumping the engine over... but how? the only way for it to do that is for the ECU to feed power to MG1 so it will rotate as it does while starting the vehicle.. in doing so.. it acts against the forces generated by MG2 (the ring gear.) While coasting... MG1 will turn in a direction opposite MG2 and opposite engine rotation... once power is applied to MG1 (b mode) the engine begins to turn... and as MG1 starts to turn in the direction of engine rotation force is acting against MG2... as more power is applied... the engine revs faster but the force acting against MG2 isn't felt (the vehicle doesn't slow down more quickly) than when entering into B mode... so... the engine seems to be the path of least resistance...
     
    #55 jerlands, Oct 27, 2020
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 29, 2020
  16. jerlands

    jerlands Member

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    Torque really is just a manner in which force is applied...

    power will follow the path of least resistance, torque will follow the path of least resistance and force will follow the path of least resistance... an example of force following the path of least resistance... take a 10 foot pole... place three feet of it over a cinder block... place a 200 lb weight on the three foot end... go to the other end and apply downward force... the pole breaks.. what happened?... the path of least resistance...

    torque is force.. that's all it is...
     
    #56 jerlands, Oct 27, 2020
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 30, 2020
  17. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    The word salad scramble continues ...
    Torque is rotational force.

    In the post I was responding to, you took a torque split figure and tried to apply it to power. That just doesn't work, and appeared to be contributing to your confusion.
    The engine control units tell them where to go, and adjust various conditions to make it happen as intended.
    (assuming you meant to include current) Now try doing the same with torque and rotational speed. And with force and linear speed. Those also represent power, the same as voltage and current.
     
    #57 fuzzy1, Oct 28, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2020
  18. jerlands

    jerlands Member

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    one horsepower = 746 watts...
    Horsepower & Torque Calculator | Spicer Parts
     
  19. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    ... keep going ...
     
  20. jerlands

    jerlands Member

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    i gave you the calculator...