Bankruptcy for GM soon?

That's the kicker. As much as I feel the car is uncomfortable and somewhat low quality, it has great gas mileage. I can't find anything that will replace that on the daily commute.

But... I think GM has an opportunity here. The Saturn Vue Hybrid is rated at 28/32 (I think), which is 20% higher than standard, and only 2000 more (22K MSRP). The same drivetrain is going to be used in the Malibu late this year as well. If it adds 20% to the 25/35 mileage that the 4 cylinder gets, and only 2000 more, than you'll have a hybrid capable of getting ~40mpg for around 20K.

GM's strategy is smart in that respect. They're not loading up the high end versions. They're going very solidly for the midrange market, and attempting to hit the 22K sweet spot.

And to paraphrase Jack Tramiel, that's a hybrid for the masses, not the classes. And we haven't really had one of those yet.

 

Had a Malibu many years ago that certainly did not get "advertised" numbers.
Had a Sport Trac that did not get (what was a low number to start with) its' advertised numbers.

All my Toyota pick-ups and cars (Celica, Corolla, Wagon) have gotten close to sticker and all well above their Ford/Chevy "counterparts".
I knew that the numbers for the Prius were largely affected by terrain, weather and personal driving skills. I get mid forties and am damn happy about it after 14mpg on the Ford. None of my Toyotas have required more than general maintenance and I don't baby them. The Malibu was a piece of crap and the Fords have been very disappointing.

I don't really put Ford and GM in the same class because I think that Ford is slightly ahead of the game there in the fact that they are willing to go for more variety and have slighlty better reliability.

But no one on Prius Chat is going to be "coaxed" out of their loyalties by Malorn's misinformation. We have all had our own expertise with vehicles and even the young kids will be learning they like and don't like in a car.

 

I had a Grand Am and that thing "developed" holes after a month of driving or at least that's when I noticed them. When going over puddles I would have water inside the car. They wouldn't accept it as a lemon and they wouldn't fix it either. Claimed there were no holes.
Had a Taurus. After 1 year the power windows went. Had them fixed and I kept going to fix them over and over again every few months or so. Got rid of them all. Got myself a Corolla. Only a door handle went after around 175,000 miles, which the dealer personally replaced at no cost and apologized. Had that until it hit 273,000 miles and sold it in running condition and got a Prius.
Will never go back to domestics.

 

The best FE malibu is 28 (24/32). 20% better by your estimate for the hybrid version, gives 31.5 mpg.

Honda Accord 4 cyl manual is 30 mpg, and starts at 18K msrp
Toyota Corolla 4 cyl manual is 35.5 mpg, and starts at 14K msrp

As for the 22k sweet spot, the base Prius is ~ 18.5k after tax credit.

What are you smoking, Johnny ?

 

you go girl I'm surprised that GM didn't blame the holes on their usual "normal wear and tear" excuse. My Corolla was the only car that I was really really happy with ever until the Prius came along. I loved that Corolla and nothing that I ever bought from GM came close. N O T H I N G.

 

I hope people aren't buying cars out of loyalty. I have no loyalty to Toyota anymore than I do to GM. I just think that after looking at all of the possible choices and factors, Toyota makes the best car for me...and millions of Americans happen to think the same way it seems. How did this happen? To malorn, it must be the fault of the media because he doesn't see any other reason why people would choose Toyota over GM or Ford.
I think the loyalty thing is part of malorn's problem...he owns a GM dealership and he admits he has and always will be a loyal Chevy man. If everyone bought cars based on loyalty the incentive for manufacturers to build something better goes out the window. I think GM has even used that loyalty statistic in their advertising...it is sad when you think about it. When you don't have anything empirically good to say about how your vehicle is better than the competitors then you point out how people are buying the car out of loyalty. That's like saying, "Sure we build a car that is no better than the competition's, but we have the highest number of people buying the car because they don't care about that." How is that a good thing?

On the other hand, Salsawonder, if by "loyalties" you meant Prius Chatters' loyalties to any manufacturer that produces high quality vehicles with innovative and appealing new features, then I agree that I am loyal to that. And at the moment, that is Toyota but if GM can somehow produce these results I will not stay with Toyota just to be loyal to them. Heck, who here in America wouldn't love an American car company that gave them that? I just don't see it yet, and unlike malorn, I don't think it is the media's fault.

 

I second this. I have owned a malibu and currently drive an impala and would much rather buy an american car but the fact is Ford or GM simply do not make a car that is as good as or equal to a prius. Until Ford or GM come out with a better product then I will be driving a prius.

Mike

 

My wife and I between us have owned a Ford, 2 Plymouths, a Volvo, a Subaru, and a Hyundai. Of those, the Hyundai was the most reliable. I had completely given up on cars altogether. I don't even watch racing any more. Miserable, cantankerous, stinking beasts.

Then we got a Prius. A 10,000 km trip across the country was actually enjoyable.

 

Man Eric... you make this too easy.

http://www.automotive.com/2005/12/chevrole...ions/index.html

25/34 listed there. Even if we use your 24/32, you'd get 28.5/39. Using the combined like that is tricky.


Ever consider that the malibu hybrid would also get a rebate, taking it down further?

And how many Priuses actually sell at the base level? Very few I'd wager.

 

Formatted for PC, taken from Wikipedia
(which is a reformat of EPA data)

--------------------Small Car----Med. cars--Large cars--small Wag-- Small SUV
GM2004 ---------- 30.9----------28.3---------27.4---------32.2---------25.9
Ty2004 ------------35.6---------30.8---------27.4---------35.8---------29.6

Just to remind Malorn the forgetful, we were talking 'market segments' here. Not absolute numbers. These numbers are of course averages per class models based on car size, and so GM might have an offering that is best in segment of those noted above, that I am unaware of. :lol: :lol:

Darn EPA, they have not heard of Malorn's secrets either

 

I looked at your link -- it is for the 2005 model.
My numbers are from EPA on the 2006 model.
28 mpg isn't tricky -- it is just 50% city, 50% highway.
However, I only added 10% for the hybridization, and not the 20% you hope for, so the correct highly anticipated malibu hybrid combined EPA MPG is ... drum roll, please ...

28 + 5.6 = 33.6 MPG

 

What's the city/highway... non-combined?

 

Pardon ?

Data Source

 

What would the city/highway be for the proposed hybrid, assuming it has a 20% efficiency gain like the Vue?

28.5/39 MPG.

I'm not, for a minute, saying that the technology is better. It's not. But the superior technology doesn't always get you market dominance (See: Commodore Amiga). If GM can pump these out in volume, they are going to radically shift the playing field. And ultimately that's a good thing, because the more they pump out, the less oil we use.

 

Your numbers make sense. If you take an average of the two, my 33.6 mpg results

I still do not understand why you are looking forward to paying $22K, when a $14K Corolla does a tad better FE wise, has a superior emmisions profile, and has a reliability record that is outstanding.

I suspect that within a year or two, the HSD premium will be $2k, and as we know, FE is improved 30 - 100% depending on city or hy driving. GM's light hybrid tech is dead already IMO, if they are really trying to charge $2K for it.

 

malorn is loyal to GM because his family has invested a large amount of money in that company. it's also the family source of income.

conversely, DH got a job at toyota because he was impressed with the way the car was put together. now that he works for them, we figure it makes perfect sense to buy from a company that 1) puts cars together in a way that makes sense and 2) supplies our income

so we get a car we like, and "reinvest" our money in one of our income sources.

and for the record, DH was a die-hard saturn/chevy man until he experienced one too many major expensive failures at critical timepoints.

 

I'd rather go with a Malibu mostly because I don't think Toyota makes a very good car after my Prius Experience. And the Corolla is small.

And if the GM tech is a 2K premium now (not the hybrid cost, the cost of the system + upgraded equipment), it'll sink rapidly if they can push them in volume. If they pull this off, this is going to be a very interesting few years in the auto industry.

And GMs tech is no deader than Honda's. In fact, it may even be a little better.

According to the review of the Green Line Vue over on motorweek, the car actually moves on electric alone at creep/low speed, something IMA can't do. So they may have actually jumped ahead of Honda on this one.

 

I like how MW says the hybrid premium will be easy to recoup. Even assuming a 20% improvement (based on one 'independent' tester), it takes 120,00 miles at $2.5/gallon.

Hypocrites !

My prediction: Mega Flop.

btw, if my memory is right, this Vue was road tested by some mag, and they got 1 (ONE) mpg better than the non-hybrid version. We both know how that happened, but you are talking to the GM readership here.

 

You may be thinking of the Silverado... AFAIK, nobody's really done a full road test on the Vue yet.

But I do predict it will sell more than the Highlander Hybrid. Shouldn't be too hard I think.