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battery rebalancing order question.

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Technical Discussion' started by terramir, Mar 8, 2016.

  1. terramir

    terramir Member

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    I have a spare traction battery that I want to use temporarily so I can pull my traction battery and well cycle my battery down and up to hopefully recover some capacity. cause I'm getting less than 20 mpg in the city, but 45+ on the freeway. And well it's charging / discharging way to fast as well. the battery regrettable was stored for a month in a shed in the junk yard, and well it came from stockton,CA desert and all. replaced some cells but honestly the goal here is is to make it work so I have enough time to recondition my traction battery.
    Enough background, the questions
    #1 assuming module one is next to the computer and module 28 is where the fan duct sits which modules make up the individual pairs since there are 14 blocks the computer reads?

    #2 assuming that the prius computer looks for the blocks to be equal as much as possible, would it be smart to pair the cells after charging them all to an exact voltage waiting a day or two and then pairing the weakest with the strongest? I mean the weaker the capacity the higher the self discharge. I'm hopefully talking at most 1/10 V +/- from the mean (average) voltage? this is for the temporary replacement so I can hopefully restore my traction battery. looking for the most time before error.

    #3 If it turns out my traction battery is not gonna hack it what is the best way to determine the capacity of the cells I do have so maybe I can pick and choose and make 1 out of two. trying to avoid this since I need a functional car. but I do Have some data on the spare traction battery that does give me some info on which cells are the strongest.
    #4 for restoring modules to their maximum capacity would it be best to charge them @ 0.6A for 16 hours after discharging them or 0.3 A for longer like the grid charger does that some one advertises here. mind you I have 4 rc chargers to work with so it is a lengthy process but with the spare once it is in the car with any luck I'll have a few weeks of breathing room to work on my original traction battery.

    those are my questions because I will be swapping them shortly, but I wanted some input from the people with more experiance with this type of battery.
    thanks in advance
    terramir
     
  2. terramir

    terramir Member

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    here's the thing why does the grid charger advertised in these forums use 350 mAh to fully charge and equalize the cells, while your recommending 1/10 C at 16 hrs, while with new cells I would recommend 1/10C there is really no way for me to know what the actual capacity of these cells are ahead of time and there may be some internal imbalance of the modules. also considering the cells except for the ebay replacements all lived in california I dun need to be cooking off more electrolyte. want to be gentle on these cells as much as possible. used your method of 1/10 C and actually lost another module in the process.
    want to discharge and lose surface build-up on the plates and want to balance charge gently to see if I can recover some capacity here.
    as for the matching I was talking about of course before installing I will attempt to have all cells at as much of an equal voltage /soc as I can, but reality is that I fear the pairs will go out of sync over time and I want them to last long enough to deal with the original traction battery from my car.
    I would like some other opinions and more data. from other sources.
    terramir
     
  3. S Keith

    S Keith Senior Member

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    0.1C for 16 hours is the ANSI standard charge for capacity determination following a 0.2C discharge to 1V/cell as I recommended to you in 12/8. If you followed that process and lost a module, you had a severely imbalanced module that was going to fail anyway. NiMH chemistry can handle 0.1C overcharge provided there is sufficient cooling. It's what the manufacturer's recommend.

    350mA is used in grid charging because when these initial experiments were originally conducted about 5-6 years ago, 350mA was a readily available constant current power supply and was under the 0.1C criteria.

    It's pretty clear that you have a very incomplete understanding of every aspect of this process and the technology in general, and that hasn't improved since our initial conversations 3 months ago. I'll take the hint. Some people want to hear what they want to hear because they think they understand something they don't.

    Whatever the case, the Hybrid Automotive grid charger/discharger (reconditioning package) is an excellent tool for battery maintenance, rejuvenation and improving longevity.

    Good luck,

    Steve
     
    strawbrad likes this.
  4. ozmatt

    ozmatt Active Member

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    lol your blowing hot air mate, no way did you damage that module at 0.1c it must have been already spent or you charged it for too long, got it too hot while charging.. yada yada 0.1c was not the problem! Steves advice has proven its self to be solid and what's more he's a gentleman for advising you, for free.. across these here interwebs.. He didn't "have to" help you, its not cool to ask people for help then point blame when you fail.

    Steve (and many others on here) have helped an unlimited amount of members (myself included) successfully refurbish their once faulty traction battery back to perfect condition ..awesome :) Yay for Steve! You asked here for advice (because you don't have a clue) then chose not to listen!..
    ..then request opinions from others


    ANYWAY...... 0.1c I can hear that module yawning all the way from Australia lol the car smashes over 100 amps in and out of these modules on request willy-nilly the whole time your driving, I don't think "gentle" really comes in to the equation. Just make sure they don't get too warm between 80 and 100% soc and you wont have any problems, heat is the enemy! I charged mine at 1C and they loved it.
     
  5. terramir

    terramir Member

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    I have worked with NiMH solar banks before there were hybrids and one thing about NiMH, cut-off has always been a bi***, and capacity will degrade over time so C will change , rated C and actual C are two different animals. the ansi standard was based on actual C if I remember correctly. thing is I do have a clue I have worked with NiMH blocks that lived for many years and cycles. there was always one firm rule overcharging is the #1 killer of capacity!

    I have learned over time that one should always listen to more than one opinion, on any subject matter. There is always more than one way to skin a cat. (disclaimer I never have nor will I ever skin a poor kitty)
    I would like to hear other voices here ya know.
    terramir
     
  6. ozmatt

    ozmatt Active Member

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    yes overcharging is a killer, but 0.1c is not

    dV detection on most toy chargers is very lazy at 0.1c hopefully you new this and had an input mA limit set as precaution
     
  7. terramir

    terramir Member

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    Yeah at 0.1 C practically non existent yeah
    Been thinking about why the module died, well it actually shorted one cell inside reading like 6.something V there. I am just wondering if it was it's time or if I killed it somehow.
    I am just thinking that if I discharge these modules to 6V and charge them at well 0.6A for 16 hours I'm not even reaching 0.1C but at 0.7 it's more regrettably these toy chargers dun give me the 650mAh option.
     
  8. ozmatt

    ozmatt Active Member

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    ahh yeah not good, bury it. Why are your charging at such low levels anyway? it seems pointless like i said earlier the car smashes >100A into these periodically.

    16 hours at 600ma is something like 9600mA, I personally would NOT input that high on a module that had been discharged to 6v.

    If you didn't have a mAh limit set then you possibly overcharged that module until terminal failure (violin music)
     
    #8 ozmatt, Mar 9, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2016