Featured BBC News: Plug-in hybrids are a 'wolf in sheep's clothing'...

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by NewHybridOwner, Sep 16, 2020 at 11:20 AM.

  1. NewHybridOwner

    NewHybridOwner Active Member

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  2. ForestBeekeeper

    ForestBeekeeper Active Member

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    The article does not give the details, but I suspect they are assuming the electricity you are using to charge with is coal-fired.
     
  3. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    From the article.
    Transport and Environment's analysis says a key problem with plug-in hybrids is that so many owners rarely actually charge their cars, meaning they rely on the petrol or diesel engine.
    Yeah, if you never charge your PHEV, then of course, it has same emission as hybrid cars. That's not the car problem, it's still people problem.
     
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  4. Bob Comer

    Bob Comer Active Member

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    This is the only sentence in that that really means anything: "The latter mode means that the car's emissions will depend a lot on the driver's behaviour." Only apply it to all driving.
     
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  5. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Perhaps, or the grid mix of the survey participants, or even ignore.
    "The pressure groups have analysed what they say is "real-world" data on fuel efficiency collected from some 20,000 plug-in hybrid drivers around Europe.

    These are drivers who have chosen to record their mileage and fuel consumption for surveys or who drive company or leased vehicles whose fuel efficiency is recorded."

    PHEVs in Europe have been getting bad press before this article, because people are buying for the plug in and low carbon emission incentives without intent of charging them. Even have been calls to ban them.
     
  6. ForestBeekeeper

    ForestBeekeeper Active Member

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    I keep my Prius plugin recharging whenever it is parked. We recharge it with solar power from our household solar system.
     
  7. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    And others have bought PHEVs, including the Prime, for just the HOV access, and don't charge.

    If the survey for the OT is correct, then many PHEVs in Europe were bought more for the incentives, and not charged. Nearly triple the gasoline and diesel consumption doesn't happen from just more aggressive driving. Even when compared to NEDC.
     
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  8. m8547

    m8547 Senior Member

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    Banning them would be ridiculous. If the problem is the incentives, then change or eliminate the incentives.

    Personally I do think the incentives I got on mine were too high for how much benefit it provides to society. But I'm happy to take advantage of the incentives that are there. I drive on electricity as much as possible for a variety of reasons, not just the price (which I've explained in gas vs electricity price threads).

    Gas is pretty expensive in Europe, right? Maybe instead of subsidizing the car, they should subsidize the electricity. Give people the same $0.11/kWh I pay for electricity here, and I guarantee they will be charging it as much as they can. It's like getting gas for just over $1 per gallon. Even if it comes from coal, it moves pollution away from city centers, and those centralized power plants can be upgraded to renewables over time.

    In some ways PHEVs are the perfect compromise between EVs and combustion cars. The battery is just big enough to cover around 80% of typical usage, and the ICE covers the extreme edge cases that would be expensive to make batteries for. There are lots of people for whom full EVs wouldn't work for at least some of the time, but PHEVs work for anyone who can charge on a regular basis. People who have no access to convenient charging would be better off with a HV because it's cheaper and consumes less resources to build.

    PHEVs are also in some ways the worst of both EVs and combustion cars. They have the combined cost, complexity, maintenance, and weight of both kinds of power train. Pure EVs are appealing in part because they eliminate so much complexity from a car.
     
  9. huskers

    huskers Senior Member

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    Well, if I drive correctly I get sheep and no wolves.
     
  10. m8547

    m8547 Senior Member

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    It would be entertaining if aggressive driving made wolves show up and eat the sheep. But that might not encourage the driving behavior they are going for, for some people. I'd probably try to see how many wolves I could get.
     
  11. Prim.e.xample

    Prim.e.xample Junior Member

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    Wouldn’t it still be better for the environment if most people drove hybrids instead of conventional engines? I don’t see all of the hoopla.
     
  12. Old Bear

    Old Bear Senior Member

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    The real problem is that a PHEV in hybrid mode is carrying around more weight in batteries than a conventional hybrid would. And, as new PHEVs are designed with larger battery packs for greater EV range, this problem will become worse.

    Sure, it's a user problem if the user never uses the car's plug-in charging feature. So one might ask, why did the user buy the PHEV in the first place. Well, maybe good intentions. Or maybe tax incentives made purchasing a PHEV appear less expensive than a conventional hybrid. Or maybe because the user thinks owning a PHEV is environmentally beneficial without thinking much about having to plug it in to make it so.

    I'm not sure if there is a solution to the problem. Engineers say "If you create something that's absolutely idiot proof, someone else will create a bigger idiot."
     
  13. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    As long as the hybrid is more efficient than the car being replaced, then yes.

    The issue in Europe is that PHEVs are getting incentives for being low carbon emitters, but that is only the case if they are plugged. many are buying them because of the incentives, but not plugging in. The fault isn't with the cars, but with the incentive structure.
     
  14. 3PriusMike

    3PriusMike Prius owner since 2000, Tesla M3 2018

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    Sheepishly, I must admit that my PIP is now approaching 70% EV usage due to low miles (mostly EV) during the last 6 months.
    But is never going to approach the 100% for my Tesla (which is getting most of the miles)

    Mike
     
  15. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

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    Yep... This is all you need to know about this complete fail of an article/argument. You'd think BBC would have higher editorial standards?
     
  16. telmo744

    telmo744 HSD fanatic

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    Not true, they emit much more than a hybrid, because most PHEV have Otto ICEs.
     
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  17. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    OK. Then I edit. Yeah, if you never charge your Prius PHV, then of course, it has same emission as hybrid Prius. That's not the car problem, it's still people problem.
     
  18. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    Couldn't they curtail this behavior by making (a certain amount of) free electricity the only actual benefit given out in these schemes?

    That way you weed out the ones who only wanted the tax dodge or HOV stickers.
     
  19. Rmay635703

    Rmay635703 Senior Member

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    Yep I’m emitting way more emissions than a regular car

    CA2421E5-AD86-4EBC-B2FF-A8CD8A4A7CFF.jpeg
     
  20. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    I'm sure there are other ways of fixing their incentive program.
    One is to drop the bogus combined fuel economy rating for PHEVs. Right now it is a figure blending ICE and EV usage over some arbitrary distance. One with an inefficient engine can hit the under 100g/mi target for lower taxes and incentives by just having a big enough battery.
     
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