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Better Place anyone?

Discussion in 'EV (Electric Vehicle) Discussion' started by SparkieBlues, Jan 26, 2011.

  1. SparkieBlues

    SparkieBlues New Member

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  2. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    doesn't there appear to be a bit of flim flam with this guy?
     
  3. caffeinekid

    caffeinekid Duct Tape Extraordinaire

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    Perhaps. But then again, there always is with visionaries. I like the guy's enthusiasm and I like that TED in a way consolidates these people into a single source. :thumb:
     
  4. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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    electric vehicle need support in many different ways. BP will fill a niche and a very valuable and essential niche as well
     
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  5. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

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  6. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

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  7. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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    I think Better Place is still a valid idea that is right on many different levels but I think they are introducing the concept a little too early and its not their fault. its our fault for being slow to embrace EVs, its Auto manufacturers fault for being slow to offer EVs and its the government's fault for being slow to support EVs, infrastructure and creating an equitable transportation support structure

    My LEAF has done very well for me. my transportation needs are modest. i made a decision over 10 years ago to "localize" my life. I changed jobs, minimized my commute, etc. I got the LEAF because it was the near perfect (nothing is perfect) local commuter. Then fast charging came along and completely changed the game.

    Before fast charging, our driving ratio was about 52-48% in favor of the Prius during Summer. its now 63-37 in favor of the LEAF. the ratio will level out a bit when colder weather hits but it wont get down to the 60-40 level Prius like it has the past 2 winters. But all that change is solely due to fast charging which has changed my LEAF from a "local" car to a "regional" car. Trips of 150 miles do require a few charge ups but this is something we did 4 times this past Summer for trips ranging from 130-170 miles and it was done with a minimal amount of inconvenience. most stops were short, incorporated other needs so the amount of "wasted" time was minimalized

    DaveinOlyWA: DCFC
     
  8. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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  9. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

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  10. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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    a great idea way ahead of its time? interested to see how Denmark goes since they seem to have the greatest level of EV adoption up to this point. BP needs to figure out how to get more EVs in the mix. only having one car compatible with their system is going to make it a very tough road
     
  11. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Dave since you are the target market, what is the problem with Fast charging that would have you using better place instead?

    How many times do you expect to fast charge a year?

    If better place were available, but in fewer places than fast chargers, how many times would you pay more to swap your pack out faster than the fast charge?

    If your next plug-in could use the full 90kw of frankenplug up to a 80% charge, would a 23 minute charge of 30kwh (giving 3 minutes time for plugging and handshaking) or 88 miles on a future leaf type bev with a slightly bigger battery, be fast enough to get rid of the need for a battery swapping solution.
     
  12. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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    maybe not me personally but we have a guy in Kent WA who has 57,000+ miles on his LEAF and is exactly 18 months and 10 days into ownership. He is typical of EV drivers who have a lot of driving need but are hampered by the range of the LEAF. He is lucky that he has a set destination to drive to and that his employer installed a charging station for him (one for the employees, one for the public)

    Have another guy AT&T regional manager type of dude. has near 40,000 miles on his LEAF but has to drive all over Puget Sound region. Once again, he is able to manage it because his job involved a lot of electronic communication, teleconferencing, etc. so he has large blocks of time during his day to sit for an hour or 90 minutes and charge.

    Now if quick charge was always quick, it might not be so bad but its not. Batteries charge faster in Summer than Winter. the colder it gets, the slower they charge. One guy in Norway reported measuring just over 500 watt/hours when it should have been 3800 but then again, the temp had been -10F... I dont have to worry about that but the rate of charge starts to slow below 20ºC.

    also, it only charges at full speed until SOC hits about 60-65% then it drops off and pretty quickly. You get more range in the first 11 minutes of charging than you do in the next 25 minutes. QC's might give you 80% charge in 30 minutes but it will take another HOUR to get that last 20% and in winter time when your range at 100% is already down to 70-75 miles, its hard to make 80% work. But that is with the LEAF battery. bigger batteries would be much better for quick charging but they cost too much.

    But BP you dont buy the batteries, you only lease the juice, right? Now, BP Israel is failing because of the perception that the lease rates are too high (and they are spendy considering you have both battery lease and car payments) but the alternative? $80,000 for a Tesla 85? verses $400 a month (not sure of that price but remember gas in Israel is like $10 a gallon) you can lease batteries for a decade before you make up that sticker.
    having only one car to choose from is also not helping either

    I am not a good person to answer that mostly because I have a few in my area and they are all free and I am very VERY CHEAP... so to hint at an answer; I QC'd 34 times in the month of October alone. drove over 1500 miles and paid out of my pocket about $14 for electricity...

    But in the normal course of life, I would pay to QC probably about 15-20 times a year at least because that is how often we go to places that tax the LEAF's range. Usually a single trip would have multiple QC sessions. If the stations exist, my preference is to charge 15 minutes and then go to the next station. In Summer, that is good for 35-40 miles of range.

    hard question to answer and it would depend on my destination and convenience. Problem with that is this implies that everyone will be leasing the batteries. Steve; the 57,000 mile man would probably do it once every 6 months just to have a fresh pack and regain the range he has lost (he has lost about 10% so far) So there really is several rules of the game that change when you have the choice to swap or quick charge. But generally who would want to wait 20 minutes to get 60 miles of range when they can wait 5 minutes and get 85 miles of range?

    for me and most people, yes. but there will always be people who want bigger, better, faster and more and are willing to pay for it. the one thing we need to realize is that BP allows people who cant charge at home options.

    We are forgetting that most people charge only at home because they live in an area that has little or no public charging of any kind. In those areas, a condo or apt dweller does not have any options. BP gives them options
     
  13. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    For quick charges to always be quick, then it is likely that they will need liquid conditioning. The Tesla, volt, and focus EV, and RAV4 EV do this, but perhaps the leaf was not designed to be QC in the heat or cold. Then again only the tesla and leaf are designed for QC at all, the others don't have electronics. Only the Tesla S has a battery designed to be quickly exchanged, all the others are SOL. Only the Renault Fluenze supports better place today, which may be why it will be difficult to raise any capital to do a bettery place exchange in the US.


    You lease battery and electricity for about $350/mo and still need to buy or lease the car.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/03/business/shai-agassi-steps-down-as-chief-of-better-place.html?_r=0
    Note in the USA the leaf leases for that or less for car and batteries. That makes it a tough sell. 350 kwh a month should be much cheaper than leasing the rest of the car. That should be more than a typical Isreali or Dane drives.




    So you are saying there is no way you would pay that lease rate to get batteries and electricity.

    That makes better place a money losing proposition in the US versus phev or quick charging bev.
     
  14. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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    oh I would definitely be interested in the prospect of leasing a battery from BP. It would not fly at $350 a month but realize Israel, a monthly gas bill of more than $350 a month is common.

    I talk online occasionally with a guy who has a BP lease. He says gas runs $10 a gallon so the $350 is not that much at all. he drives a lot and used to pay $600 a month for gas. his big gripe with BP is charger locations could be better and he hates his car... not the EVing or the battery swapping. its the car he hates. he normally drives upper scale cars and the Renault is too small, too "chintzy"

    he is pretty sure that BP would do much better when they are compatible with more cars
     
  15. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    I think it would be more in the US, not less. They need to build all the infrastructure for that price. I doubt many want to spend a lot more for the privlage of leasing a battery from a company in poor financial condition.

    But the lease is that price because Renault subsidieses it. The model does have much better chance of working in a small country with expensive gasoline. The US is a big country. A PHEV seems like it will be the big seller here.

    The Focus is the best selling car in Isreal. I doubt Ford will change the battery to work with better place, and sell them cheaply. The tesla battery could work, but will Isrealis pay for the much more expensive lease on that battery?
     
  16. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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  17. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    The bp concept in Israel is doing badly because they don't have critical mass. They need a certain number of subscriptions to not bleed large amounts of cash. They don't have enough there. The best thing you can say is it may be premature. It is a small country, with emotional arguments to not import gasoline, and expensive gasoline. The problem is people don't really want enough of the cars that have the switchable packs.

    The bp concept in the US seems very bad. Its a big country and like fuel cell hydrogen infrastructure, costs for to implement are huge. PHEVs and public chargers are competitive technologies that make investment extremely problematic. Even if BP works in Isreal and Denmark it is doubtful it would ever work here. But that's the problem for better place. They sold it for working in a big market.

    The best thing for them to do is downsize their expectations. Maybe they can get something workable in Isreal, Denmark, Hawaii, etc. Denmark would be my choice for best chance. But the company is likely to bleed red ink for awhile. Why Denmark? Its got expensive electricity, small distances to drive, and lots of wind. BP could cut a deal with the government to pay less for electricity if they peak skimmed the wind.


    In small countries like Isreal and Denmark, a phev with a 40 mile range and a QC network could make over 90% of miles electric. These countries don't have the us emissions standards so they could have a very inexpensive 3 cylinder range extender. Add on Spark type EVs that get 80 miles with 40 miles in a 10 minute recharge and it gets rid of most of the reason for the BP concept.
     
  18. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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    segmenting is the only way they can really work it unless someone is willing to give 10 billion in support. But there are several areas they could make it work. DC Metro for one. Center it around major airports where taxi's and delivery services would be the initial customer base. This reduces the # of swap stations needed right away and allows exposure to a larger audience of customers. After all, what else is there to talk about when shuttling from the Airport to your hotel?
     
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  19. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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  20. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

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