Beware Buyers

I picked up my new Prius last August and PPI was not available in my state. The Toyota dealer told me that if I wanted the PPI, I would have to wait and it would cost about $6000 more than a standard Prius before applying any rebates and incentives. I made a calculation, without rebates, it would take me over 10 years of gas savings to cover the cost of $6000. As an engineer, I also know that anytime you make a machine more complicated, you taking on more risks of things breaking down. I decided not to buy the PPI at the end.

PS: The Prius is not going to make the world "green". If the government is really concerned about being green, they should have taxed the heck out of gasoline instead. Higher gas price will eventually discourage people from driving big cars. Giving rebates to Prius buyers isn't effective because I still see a lot of big vehicles out there on the road. Those drivers need to be punished by higher gas prices but they are not being punished right now.

From what I read, I would like to have the Chevy Volt instead of the PPI. I think Chevy Volt would fit most people's driving pattern. Unfortunately, the price of the Chevy Volt wasn't attractive at the time I was looking for a hybrid car. I suspected that Toyota didn't want to make the same mistake that GM made.

You mentioned that some people may make short trips. I actually get much better MPG on short trips. The trick is to combine all the short trips and do them all in one day.

Last year, the PPI was not available in my state. However, the Toyota dealer told me that it would cost about $6000 more to buy the PPI before rebates. If I remember correctly, my calculation said I still would end up paying about $3500 more after rebates. Please don't accuse me for not wanting to be "green". In fact, I would prefer the government tax the heck out of the gasoline instead of giving out stupid rebates. Higher taxes on gas will discourage people from driving big cars. I still see a lot of people driving big SUV and hummers out there. They need to be punished by higher gas prices.

About a year ago, the Toyota dealer didn't have any PPI since it was not available in my state. However, they estimated that it would cost me $6000 more for the PPI over the standard Prius. I agree with you, many people are including the dealers are not fully informed. If they had told me about the Lithium battery, I may have thought about the PPI differently. Thanks for clearing things up.

Mike...I paid about 13 cents per kilowatt-hour. I figured that if I couldn't get free electricity, I would be paying about 40 cents for a full charge from empty. If I could achieve the same milage on EV as you have, my savings would be about 100 gallon of gas which is about $400. That's is not a lot considering that Toyota wanted $6000 more for PPI. That was the price the Toyota dealer quoted me last year. I do understand that the price may have came down. But remember, I have no way of getting free electricity at this point, it would cost me about $150 of electricity per year. The savings is just too small to invest another $6000 in PPI

You're right. Charging stations are available in big cities. I spoke to some friends who work in cities. But they said there aren't enough of them to serve everyone. Most of them are taken up by company cars. And rest are first come, first served. It may only take one or two hours to get a full charge, but the person who took the space in the morning would not move the car after it gets the full charge. Therefore, the charging station isn't available for other people to use even after the car got the full charge.

 

Ya, you probably made a good decision at a $6000 premium. Personally I only paid about a $1500 premium though. And it's financed at 0% over 5 years. I figure I can save $25 per month in gas pretty easily in the PiP compared to the regular Gen3.

 

I always thought engineers used logic and sound principals of thought. Repeating the same lame arguments over and over doesn't make them right. Words fail me.

 

Of course...if my logic isn't the same as yours, I'm the one who is wrong.

 

The world is full of people making the same penny-wise pound foolish calculation. We all know it isn't worth it to have a high efficiency A/C, a better water heater, a well-insulated house...it might take a decade or two for the house payback...even though the house might last 3 or even 6 decades. And who gives a damn about good design and construction since I won't be living there then. Of course you'll be buying another house from someone else who did the same ROI calculation...so everyone loses. All people seem to care about in a house is granite counters and other superficial things.

Same thing with cars. The average age of a car on the road is 10-12 years, IIRC. That means many cars are 15-20 years old. Someone is buying them as the second or third owner. A better car is worth more, in the future, if it gets better mpg and benefits the future owner(s) and society as well.

Sure, if the car would never have a chance at paying back, that is different. But it isn't just expected to last 10 years, the drive train warranty is 10 years, 150K miles.

Mike

 

No, I think if your logic is built on fallacies, then you are the one that is wrong.

 

Mike....that is why I have always said, if the government really cared about being green, they should just tax the heck out of the gasoline. Jack up the price to $5 or more per gallon. Not only this would make hybrid car and PPI more attractive, this would also punish the people who drive big vehicles as well.

 

I also started my car search last year and agree that last summer the premium for a PHEVs and EVs was far above my thershold. However, I was committed to advancing they technology by being an early adaptor. my threshold was simply, we had to recover the premium within 5 years of purchase. I think this is one of the biggest challenges policy makers face in the public perception that bigger is better. If you do the math the results suggests that commutes of less than 15-18 miles the PIP cost less to drive than a Volt. If your trip is 15 to 50 miles the Volt is a better choice. While for trips over 50 miles the PIP is cheaper to run than the Volt. Based on the current data 30% to 40% of US commuters would benefit from driving a PIP. While it is true you can save fuel by combining short trips in a gas fuel car. I use the same strategy using my PIP. At this point I am averaging 840 mpg over my last 400 miles. I and Toyota agree agree with you, a sound engineering principle is to keep your design as simple as possible. A close examination reveals that the PiP is built in top the time tested Prius platform. The further Toyota stretched beyond the standard prius the greater the risk. Evidence that Both you and Toyota are correct is the data available from Fuelly and othe sites that track real world fuel economy.
What I find interesting is your conviction that an engineering approach is an example of a 'best practice'. However, i found it disappointing that your approach lacked several key components. Most significant your failure to do your homework. I am not an engineer. Nonetheless, before making my decesion I reviewed 20+ technical reports on battery performance and on PHEV technology. While I did find some of the material difficult comprehend it certainly helped my effort to reach an informed decesion. I also spent time examining Toyota's design and marketing decisions. Indeed when I learned Toyota goal was to use they current Prius technology as a platform I gained confidence in the PIP's technology.
In other words, good engineering practices (at least where I come from) involves more than collecting 'some' data. Before carring out a calculation/analysis it is important to assure the data you are using is valid.

 

Well, if I've calculated my litres to US gallons and then pounds to dollars correctly, at £1.35 a litre I'm currently paying over $7.50 per US gallon...

 

I did do my homework. Unfortunately, the information that I got from the Toyota dealer and web sites is out of date. The current PPI is definitely a better design than the one I read about last year. However, I would still wait a few years before I buy a PPI since lithium battery doesn't have a long track record in terms of power source for cars. I will have to wait and see.

 

correct, but they charge more for alt fuel vehicles, making breakeven almost as difficult, do they not?

 

Hence, that is why you don't see too many big vehicles running around in Europe. I still see a lot of big cars on the road today and these stupid government rebates for hybrid cars aren't very effective in reducing carbon output. There are still too many people out there willing to pay $4/gallon and drive big cars and vans to go to work without carpooling. Jacking up gas prices is the only sure way to get people to drive smaller cars and more fuel efficent cars

 

What happens when people DO move to more efficient cars? The government says that they need to to SOMETHING to recover lost gas tax revenue, and slaps a special tax on hybrids (q.v. Virginia).

 

We are talking about how to be green. I never said being green was cheap and certainly not free. My point is that rebates for hybrid car is ineffective.

 

Yes, I was being a bit tongue in cheek. Even after the £5000 grant, which takes the place of your tax credit, there's a £5000 or so difference between plug in and liftback, though I haven't compared specs fully. That probably explains why take up has been so low here.

Buying secondhand, my difference is about £3000. I save about £2.50 a commuting day with one free charge, about £1 from any other charge at home. I probably save £500 a year, plus there is no annual car tax. My payback is probably under five years, I intend to keep it as long as it isn't costing too much to maintain, at least 8-10 years.

 

I'm still waiting for a logical explanation for your claims........

 

What do you mean by waiting for my logical explanations? You want me to re-type everything I already posted? There is nothing to explain. If you don't agree with it then you don't agree with it. At the time I was looking at a Plug-in, they wanted $6000 premium over the standard Prius. There is no way I could have recovered that cost in just a few years.

 

Yes, please.

I saved the complete text of the original thread and would like avoid to rehashing that again. This is your opportunity to...

 

LOGIC being the operative word here.........

 

sounds about the same as me. how many miles a year do you drive? i do around 8-10,000.