Biohazard Filter Option on Primes?

Discussion in 'Prime Main Forum (2017-Current)' started by Shaunius, May 14, 2020.

  1. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    Did you notice that both of the papers you cited are in the second category from the bottom of "the pyramid of scientific evidence" you posted? Not much more evidence than so-called expert opinion. In fact, the second paper you referenced was originally published in the JAMA issue as an "Insight" article. Turbulent Gas Clouds and Respiratory Pathogen Emissions: Potential Implications for Reducing Transmission of COVID-19 | Infectious Diseases | JAMA | JAMA Network This type of article is considered to be an expert opinion paper that has not been peer-reviewed. So, both papers are of much less quality as far as scientific evidence is concerned. I have read many papers that came out in the past few months that describe the mechanism of droplet transfer without taking into consideration the viability and infectivity of viral particles. Without those parameters, studies like you have referenced are almost meaningless.

    Is it possible to catch COVID-19 from the air outside while you are driving in a car? I guess, it is possible, although highly unlikely. To this equation, add the following question. Does installing a biohazard filter in the car mitigate this risk? I guess it depends on the design of the filter and air handling system of the car. But, I still think if that risk is high enough to worry about, you should be more worried about catching the virus before you enter the vehicle and after you exit the vehicle. You are much more likely to catch them outside of the car, of course, provided that you are not riding a car with someone infected with COVID-19.
     
    #21 Salamander_King, May 15, 2020
    Last edited: May 15, 2020
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  2. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    check out biology professor erin bromage's blog: where you're likely to catch covid-19
     
  3. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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  4. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    thanks!(y)

    unfortunately, he doesn't mention automobiles :rolleyes:
     
    #24 bisco, May 15, 2020
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  5. mistermojorizin

    mistermojorizin Active Member

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    Thank you, that gives my point more weight. I may be looking too deeply into your phrase about crediting sources, but I hope I was clear enough that I wasn't trying to take personal credit for the hierarchy on this forum.

    My issue is with scientific claims being made without providing anything but their conclusory statement. Not putting in at least some effort to provide some basis for the argument.
     
  6. The Electric Me

    The Electric Me Go Speed Go!

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    Exactly.
    Maybe the truth and challenge is there just doesn't exist a lot of specific information or tests/studies that reveal this quantified risk. 6 months ago in the USA, whether or not your car ventilation system met HEPA or virus halting standards wasn't something people worried about.

    Right now for me?
    I drive...sometimes just a drive A to B...B to A, without leaving my vehicle.
    Sometimes, I do go grocery shopping, or some other trip of need that includes me exiting my vehicle and going into public environments.
    At this point, in those cases, I'm much more worried about possible exposure outside the vehicle, and possibly bringing the virus physically into the vehicle and touching surfaces, than I am about the vehicles ventilation system.
    I've been wiping down surfaces with sani-wipes, including my hands. Been a little worried about maybe discoloring or damaging the surfaces I'm wiping down, but so far, so good.

    At some point also for me personally? It becomes I can only do the best I can, and I can't worry about absolutely EVERYTHING.
    Show me some statistics, some studies concerning the risk, while driving in a moving vehicle. Show me some statistics/studies on the effectiveness of a "Bio-Hazard" cabin filter. If I feel the benefit/risk makes it worth it? Then I might buy and/or install one of these filters.

    Until then? I do the best I can. Really skeptical that we should extrapolate risk, from studies and results coming from "open air" transmission.
    Maybe ignorantly, I would assume being in the enclosure a vehicle represents, AND moving, usually at pretty high speeds, would be very altering factors.
     
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  7. mistermojorizin

    mistermojorizin Active Member

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    Yes the papers I linked were the next level up from the bottom, but that's a huge jump from just saying most experts agree and not providing any basis except that conclusion restatement. Next level! I mean my argument can be picked apart because I did put in the effort to actually find a little bit of supporting information. And that's fine, that's how value is added to a discussion.

    Also I tend to agree with a lot of your over arching points, that there's a lot Of unanswered questions. Since I don't know the answers, I'm not going to assume that the answers are no. I'm going to err on the side of caution and wear a mask while I'm outside. And if I had the option I would put in some sort of filtration system in the car.
     
  8. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    see post 23 link, there's a lot in there. professor of biology, i know, not much science
     
  9. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    Although scientific queries sometimes clear the uncertainty, many of what it proves are just common sense we already knew.
     
  10. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    agreed. i will stay away from the buffet though :cool:
     
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  11. mistermojorizin

    mistermojorizin Active Member

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    that link is very interesting (because there's references there) and i appreciate that. if it was posted in post 16, i wouldn't have said anything negative about it. i'm glad that you ended up posting that link in this thread after all. (y)
     
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  12. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    #32 Salamander_King, May 16, 2020
    Last edited: May 16, 2020
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  13. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i can't link, so many thanks to sal ^
     
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  14. jzchen

    jzchen Senior Member

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  15. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Can the result be called HEPA unless the way it mounts in the HVAC housing absolutely precludes leakage around it?

    I'm not sure I remember the details of how the filter sits in there, but it didn't seem, you know, engineered for laboratory use....
     
  16. Shaunius

    Shaunius Junior Member

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    I’ve heard otherwise just recently though this may be due to due to the virus evolving it’s very difficult to say


    iPhone ?
     
  17. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    Sorry, but I don't understand what you are trying to say. Do you mean, the virus has "evolved" to survive longer in the open air? I don't think I have heard such a change has occurred, but there has been a study on how long the virus persists in various environments. However, the studies I have read do not account for the infectivity of the virus in those situations. Having thousands of virions in a droplet can infect a person nearby, but a very small airborne micro-droplet containing only a few virions is not likely to be infective. Without viral load and infectivity measurements, we know nothing about the risk of the virus in the open air even if they do exist.
     
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  18. jzchen

    jzchen Senior Member

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    I thought "electrostatically charged" means it acts like a magnet to any electrically charged or polar molecules. Similar to how a virus would attach to a cell, it would get stuck onto the surface.

    moto g(7) power ?
     
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  19. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    That is how electret filter materials manage to snag particles smaller than what they would catch on physical size alone, and therefore how they can be much easier breathing than a filter made physically much finer. N95 mask materials are made that way too.
     
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