Blu-Ray vs. HD DVD

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(nerfer @ Nov 13 2006, 10:49 AM) [snapback]348183[/snapback]</div>

We addressed this issue recently in another thread.
TV panel displays are seldom used at maximum brightness.
Plasmas use more electricity at maximum brightness,but consume less when brightness is reduced to a normal viewing level.
LCDs are always at maximum energy consumption even when the brightness is reduced to a normal level.
The Prius may get only 6 mpg when going 120 MPH. But thats not an important statistic for fuel economy comparisons.

 

My insignificant thoughts (I'll edit as I have to go reread some posts):
-Blu-ray will lose the battle if for nothing else than having Sony back them. Sony's recent backing of formats hasn't really worked out. BetaMax failed. MemoryStick is a failure. I'll think of more later. Their only successes seem to be their proprietary CRT technology and their LCDs, but even so they are behind others in sales because other companies use standardized technology.
-PS3 sales have not reached expectations. Sony wanted to sell 1 million units by the end of 2006, and that has not happened.
-Blu-ray devices have been plagued by bugs and are sometimes twice the price of their HD-DVD counterparts.
-HD-DVD is cheaper to manufacture in the short and long terms (assuming it will win the format wars).
-HD-DVD has come out on top in terms of picture quality. The transfers or the hardware in Blu-ray may not be up to snuff.
-A combo player is now out called the LG BH100, which is Blu-ray certified, but has not received the seal of approval of the HD-DVD forum because it does not play the extras (HDi). Nevertheless, the player will play both movie formats.
-A 1080p set seems somewhat pointless for now. I'm unsure of whether anything really outputs 1080p.
-Upconversion DVD players also see somewhat pointless. They are adding pixels where none exists. The same holds for 1080p upconversion sets and players.
-As of now, HD-DVD is considered inferior because of storage capacity. However, most movies will fit on the standard 15GB and 30GB discs. Nevertheless, 51GB discs have been announced on triple layers.
-A 1080p set at less than (arbitrary number here) 60 inches is pointless. No one can distinguish the extra pixels unless you sit extraordinarily close. Home Theater Magazine has some hard numbers concerning 1080p sets. Two sets: 1080i and 1080p showing a native movie shot in 1080i and shown on a set that's 40 inches. Neither sets will be distinguishable to most people.
-Sony is selling their PS3 at a loss, the amount dependent on the model. They cost roughly $800USD to make.
-Sony had a new OLED TV on display at CES with a 1,000,000 to 1 contrast ratio. From reviews, it's even better than SED sets which had models of 50,000 to 1 on display at some other trade show. If Sony has solved the OLED problems (from what I remember are some of the phosphors for certain colors dying too early), then OLED should be a great tech to compete to SED, if the latter ever gets off the ground.
-I only know of college students that use PS2s for DVD players. If college students are the primary buyers of the new generation consoles, then I doubt they will dumbly dump their money on $25 blu-ray discs.
-Both formats output a new surround sound format, which few to no receivers exist to decode. In fact, movies may not even include them.
-Blu-ray has an 8 or 10 layer concept out for a minimum of 200gigs. Do you want to sit at your screen for an entire day or two to go through all those extras? This has turned into a size war, one which will determine which format is dumber. I don't see a need for such a large size.
-Cable companies compress the HDTV signal. That sucks.
-Even PBS has to compress their signals. Around here they have 5 subchannels all crunched together.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bugmenot @ Jan 17 2007, 01:41 AM) [snapback]377062[/snapback]</div>

Several Chinese manufacturers are set to introduce HD-DVD players very soon. This should quickly drive prices down well below $300.

The newer players (Toshiba XA2 for example) output 1080p, as do video game consoles. Hardly pointless.

That's an uninformed comment. Only CRTs (direct view and projection) can change their horizontal scan rate and alter the number of scanlines per frame. Fixed-pixel devices (plasma, direct and projection LCD, DLP, and LCoS) can only display at their native resolution. That means *everything* must be converted to 1280x720p, 1366x768p, or 1920x1080p for display. So the set has to do it anyways. Also, it's fairly cheap to integrate a superior (to the TV's) deinterlacing/scaling solution (i.e. Faroudja) into a DVD player, so an upconverting DVD player does make sense - witness the success of the Oppo players which can upconvert to 1080i and the new one that outputs 1080p.

If you sit at the SMPTE recommended distance from your TV, you can definitely tell the difference between 720p and 1080p. At this distance a TV will occupy about 60 degrees of your horizontal view. It's probably closer than most people sit, but it is the distance required if you want that immersive "theater experience".

I have four HDTVs, two 1280x720p DLP and two 1920x1080p LCoS, and I can tell you that the difference between 1080p and 720p is very obvious to me while watching HDNet.

 

You misunderstand me. For fixed pixel sets, they have to upconvert, of course. But their content will never match native content on a native set.

Oppo players are reknowned for their upconversion. I think they are overrated.

You appear to be very knowledgeable about HDTVs. You also have two completely different technologies. I like DLP but they seem to "smear" shapes. LCoS is always a tech I wish "survived", but the other techs overshadow them. I understand that HDNet claims to set the full uncompressed signal, so you may possibly get the best signal possible. As I don't know what they transfer at (I can assume 1080i), I can't comment too much.

But as I said, upconversion inserts pixels where none exists. You can't deny that. Even the famed Faroudja scaler can only do so much to alter an image to something it isn't meant to be.

I'm curious which LCoS sets you have. Do you have the Mitsu? Jvc? Sony?

 

This is actually very amusing. People on both sides seem to have proof that both sides are doomed to fail. We will just have to wait and see.


As for the PS3 having BluRay out of the box and the HD-DVD being an add-on to the Xbox 360, it ends up costing the same for both, $600.

Also, if you look at sales this Christmas, Microsoft is laughing all the way to the bank. Sure they could have waited for a year for HD-DVD to be finalized so they could include it in the console from the beginning. But they now have a 1 year head start over both Sony and Nintendo. The first couple of weeks after release Sony sold about 195,000 units, Nintendo sold about 476,000 units, and the Xbox 360 sold over 511,000.

As of today (more or less) the total sales in the US stand at: Xbox - 10.1 million units, PS3 - 1.1 million, and Wii - 3.9 million. That's a 10 to 1 ratio. So even if only 10% of Xbox owners buy the HD-DVD unit, then it will equal the PS3's BluRay.

The war over HD formats is almost as silly as the flaming that goes on over which console is better. Each has their qualities and flaws, but none is particularly better than the other (I have all three, so I feel I can make a qualified opinion).

As far as which DVD format is better? Neither. Yes, one has greater capacity, and this has that, and that has this, and blah, blah, blah. ONce again, I have both, so I can speak from experience. Both are great. Both look wonderful on a HD television. The sound is great on both. Most people will NOT be able to see any difference between the two even if they watched it side by side. As a certified HT fanatic I do see differences between them, but they are so trivial that they make no difference during normal watching. ANyone can put in a bunch of test patterns and see the flaws of hte format (or more likely the TV), but during normal movie watching those flaws are really not noticeable.

What it comes down to is if you are really gung-ho about HD, go out and buy both format players (or wait a bit for a combo player) and enjoy the show. If you are not, then just wait until one format dies.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DocVijay @ Jan 17 2007, 09:56 AM) [snapback]376847[/snapback]</div>

From http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070115-8625.html:

* In total units (standalone and game consoles) Blu-ray has about 60% and HD-DVD about 40%

* Standalone players only account for 21% of units, other 79% are tied to either Xbox 360 or PS3

* Standalone HD-DVD sales outpace standalone Blu-ray sales by about 5:1

Total Blu-ray: 425k
Standalone Blu-ray: 25k
PS3: 400k

Total HD-DVD: 270k
Standalone HD-DVD: 120k
Xbox 360 add-on: 150k

If these numbers are accurate, they would be for sales through about the middle of December. Total PS3 sales for the USA through end of December were 690k units.

Another interesting point made by someone in the HD-DVD forum on AVSforum - DVDEmpire reports that next-gen DVD monthly sales for the past couple months are roughly mirroring the 60/40 Blu-ray/HD-DVD ratio.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bugmenot @ Jan 17 2007, 04:05 AM) [snapback]377106[/snapback]</div>

They're good for the price. The folks with external scalers turn their nose up at them. There is a current thread on AVS forum claiming the new Toshiba XA2 HD-DVD player upconverts as well as some highly regarded external scalers.

What I dislike is what they do in scenes with fast motion or otherwise rapidly changing content. They just turn into a sea of clearly visible macroblocks until the motion stops. Most people don't see it but it bothers me. These are not the same as compression artifact macroblocks, they are a visible phenomenon unique to DLPs and do not appear on other types of displays. Newer sets don't do this nearly as badly though; I think the six-color wheel on the Mits sets really helps, and I barely see it on the newest 1080p Samsungs. I'm not sure what causes the effect I see. It may be the time division multiplexing of all the colors on a single micro-mirror device, so a 3-chip DLP (only available in front projectors right now) might perform much better.

Still, LCoS gives the smoothest, most fluid motion, which is why I chose it. Every display technology has significant weaknesses currently. LCoS's weaknesses are the ones I can most easily live with, which is why the last two sets I bought were JVC HD-ILAs

It's far from dead. Sony is heavily invested with both RP and FP, as is JVC. Two of the top front projectors under $10k are Sony's Ruby and Pearl LCoS projectors. JVC will begin shipping super-slim HD-ILAs soon which can be placed flush against a wall or even hung on the wall just like plasma or LCD. The end is probably in sight now for RPTVs, but LCoS will live on in front projectors.

Funny thing is - HD video cameras in 1080 mode aren't 1920x1080, they're only 1440x1080. That doesn't change the fact that some of the most stunning HD content you can view was shot on HD video cameras. Resolution isn't everything. I digitally record programs from HDNet and I've noticed that some of my captures are actually 1440x1080i. I don't know if it's always 1440 now or if it switches between 1920 and 1440 depending on program. Other captures have been full 1920x1080i.

I think we're saying two completely different, but non-contradictory things. You're saying upconversion doesn't improve the source. I agree completely, upconversion has to synthesize information. What I'm saying is that upconversion is a necessity, and as long as you have to do it, and there are differences in quality of that upconversion, it makes sense to choose the implementation with the best performance within your budget.

I don't believe Mits makes that monster LCoS anymore. Picture quality on it sucked anyway. I've got two JVC 97-series 1080p sets.

 

Well, the thread has gotten away from BluRay vs HD-DVD, so I'll go ahead and throw in my $2 (my opinion is worth way more than 2 cents!!!).

As far as upconversion is concerned, I'm all for it. Those who claim there is no benefit have not compared them directly. I have two Denon DVD players, one that upconverts and one that doesn't. I connected them both to my HD set and played the same disc in both. The one that upconverted looked much better, plain and simple. I'm convinced.

There are quite a few sources out there that put out true 1080p even today. On a set capable of 1080p the difference over 720p is quite noticeable. I just did a comparison of two Pioneer plasmas. One is the new Elite that is a true 1080p display, and it was far superior to the previous generation 720p display. I would even say it's worth spending $7k for the 50" model (now if the wife only agreed).

I finally decided (well, the wife helped, see above) to get a Samsung 1080p LCD display for the bedroom. I have a couple of Samsung sets already, and I'm happy with the quality.

LCoS is far from dead. JVC and Sony both produce many sets using the technology, and will keep doing so. The picture quality on these sets is superb. I personally chose DLP for my sets (not the flat-panels of course).

Sony does not equal doomed products. The Memory Stick format is also far from dead. If it were so, why did HP include a slot for it in both of my new printers? Why does my Dell laptop have a slot for it? Why are Lexar and SanDisk still producing the memory? I happen to have two digital cameras and a camcorder that uses them, so I am biased. But still, more and more products are including them.

Anyway, this whole argument reminds me again of the online flame wars between the fanboys of hte various consoles. The funniest thing is that most of the claims that are made of the consoles superiority are made long before the console is even out! BluRay or HD-DVD? Unless you've got a good crystal ball, it's impossible to say. Using sales numbers is not valid considering how short they've been on the market, and that one was released slightly before the other. Come back in 10 years and tell me who won.

I remember long ago there were some people who said that CD's would never replace cassettes. Try and find one now in your local music store!

Regardless, I'll stick to my previous posts sentiment. If you're a technology geek, you'll buy them both. I have, and am now enjoying them both a whole lot. Much better than sitting here and debating which will be gone in a decade. If it concerns you so much, then don't buy either of them, ever. By the time you decide, the next formats will be on the horizon, and you'll only have to start this stupid debate all over again. Instead do like me: sit back relax, and enjoy the 1080p.

 

My understanding is that most TVs out are 720p or 1080i and the up and coming 1080p, but that may take a few years to flood the market and pass previous sets.

Anyway, the point is that all tvs upconvert. A TV at 720p has to upconvert 480i to 720p. A TV at 720p has to "downconvert" (depending how you look at the subject) 1080i to 720p. A TV has to also downconvert 1080p to 720p.

An upconversion DVD player will have settings to upconvert, but it'd redundant since it is already done on the tv set.

A player that outputs at 1080p needs to downconvert to 720p (assuming 720p is in use) anyway.

There is no point in upconverting a 480i source to 1080p, which is arguably pointless, since it will need to downconvert to 720p again. The upconversion process introduces artifacts and fake content that the tv would need to process out, leaving a signal that could possibly be worse than the original source.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Nov 12 2006, 04:20 PM) [snapback]347912[/snapback]</div>

Both of which were Incredibly successful; just not in consumer devices in the case of Betamax or outside of Sony home country of Japan in the case of MiniDisc.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Nov 12 2006, 10:09 PM) [snapback]348016[/snapback]</div>

Remember how much the MPEG2 codec in the PS2 sucked?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Jan 16 2007, 03:53 PM) [snapback]376495[/snapback]</div>

What makes the Betamax - VHS wars so unique in history is the fact that Betamax was by far the better product. The Video was much better. The Audio was much better. I'm talking about noticable difference by even the most casual observer. It was that damn Sony stubborness that made VHS win. Boy! Talk about biting off your nose to spite your face. They were solely responsible for the demise of their own great product.

One might read Microsoft's comment as a very nice compliment. One can read their, "next Betamax" comment as a reference to a superior product.

Then, of course, there's been the PC - Mac wars. The only difference is that the better product in this case is still alive and growing.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bugmenot @ Jan 18 2007, 09:04 PM) [snapback]377532[/snapback]</div>

You are correct about the up/down converting. The key is to minimize the number of conversions in the chain. The converters in the majority of TV's has often been shown to be the weakest of all the parts in doing these. I set all my devices (Sat box, DVD player, consoles, etc) to output at 720p, which is what my main TV does best. That way all the conversion is done at the source, and there is no further messing with the signal.

For example, my DirecTV box has settings for outputting a signal at the native resolution of different channels. I disabled all except 720p, so the only signal exiting the box is 720p. Otherwise the TV would have to switch from 720p, to 480i, to 1080i, and so on when I change channels. I just set it to output everything at 720p and it's much better. Keeps the TV from flashing to a black screen for a second before the picture shows up at each channel change.

The best way to do it would be to buy a dedicated scaler, which will give the best results, and then just have each component output their native resolution, go into the scaler, and then have it output at the TV's native resolution. This is more expensive though, and much more complicated. The way I have my system set up works just fine.