Featured Bolt the cannibal and used hybrid/plug-in generator

There's a huge difference between the market in 2010 and what we have now, 6 years later.

Haven't you noticed ?

 

I happened to be browsing the other day and happened upon the Buick available offers page. Some with 16% off, others $5k cash back. Granted 2016 models. But this sounds like the old GM. Wrong cars stuck on lots and big rebates.

My local GM dealer is not a Bolt seller. Neither are several GM dealers closer than the one at 58 miles.

 

Kinda like the Toyotathon. New Car Deals | Local Toyota Deals, Incentives & Special Offers

 

Actually only 1 out of 20 Americans want to own a car over a truck or SUV. The car market is collapsing.

Only reason crossovers do well is because they are viewed as being less expensive to own than a full sized truck or SUV take away that purchase price issue and we're back to the old American ideal of a truck for everyone.

Sad to live in a society of retards.

Fast forward 2-5 years and everyone will be bleeding from gas prices.

Cause obviously the price will stay low forever.

 

That's planed, a big sales blitz at year end. We've seen Toyota do that quite predictably.

GM idling 5 plants in January for 3 weeks wasn't expected. Inventory is larger than anticipated...

GM to idle 5 plants in Jan. as car supply swells

1,300 layoffs weren't exactly as hoped either, due to slow sales...

GM Sends Layoff Notice to 1,300 Michigan Workers as Sales Slow - Bloomberg

 

We know who is behind the fight against tesla in Texas - Red McColmbs and Dan Friedkin, both texas billionaires. Red is one of the biggest Toyota dealers in the state, but also is a Ford and Hyundai dealer. Dan runs gulf states Toyota. The two are behind most of the anti-Tesla money going to lobby.

Tesla's sell very well in texas, and I see plenty in Austin. They can't sell them in the showrooms, but they took my deposit on the model 3. You have to buy on-line or on the phone.

Didn't toyota just make the their fcv and plug-ins 4 seat vehicles like the volt? Isn't the mirai a failure in your opion because it pollutes more and sells worse than the volt in the only state it sells in the US? I'm not sure toyota is listening to you, are you.

I agree with john a little, bob lutz didn't spec the gen I perfectly. They used some pretty old ev1 surveys. The gen II seems a lot more on target, as does the volt.

 

The gen1 prius - looking like a modded Toyota Echo ... both it, & the gen1 Volt weren't as great as subsequent models. That's kind of just the way it is - quite often.
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Had Toyota set a goal of reaching the mainstream and selling in high-volume for this generation, it obviously would be a failure. That wasn't the purpose of this current rollout. It was to simply establish the infrastructure and prove the technology. Volume & Profit are generations away still. Plans for that have not been made yet. Fortunately, that's a secondary project. Advancement of battery & motor production continues regardless of that effort.

GM, on the other hand, targeted ordinary consumers with gen-1 Volt and set a goal of 60,000 annual (roughly 5,000 monthly) sales rate for the end of the second year. That clearly wasn't achieved by 2012 as hoped or 2013 or 2014 or 2015. Sales of gen-2 have fallen well short of the expectation too... hence the wonder about Bolt. Will it make the situation for Volt even worse?

 

Do you mean to get the governments to establish the infrastructure? Plans were actually made and are being rolled back. Infrastucture costs are not going down as fast as the fuel cell lobby (mainly down to toyota, hyundai, and honda now) promissed. Why do you think the yard stick for the mirai is so tiny? I mean there is a lot of tax payer money spent on every car.

Well lets see goal of fcv was 50,000 by the end of 2017 in california. There will be what 3000? 6%.
Mirai was supposed to outsell the tesla model S which toyota said was impossible then too expensive.

On the volt high goal was 60,000/year and they are they seemed to hit 33% of that, more some years less others.

IMHO 33% is better than 6%. Prius phv was also supposed to be 60,000 and it was what? Oh yea less than volt every year but one despite selling in Japan and US.

 

right - and Toyota makes the same kind of overblown nonsensical boats;
Toyota: “We’ll Make Tens Of Thousands Of Hydrogen Cars In The 2020s”
They can't even unload the few hundred they tried to push on us. Even after getting the state to take a bunch of them. Even after dumping the lease cost by hundreds.
Nothing will ever come of that billion-dollar disaster. At least something has come forth from the Volt & Prius & other phev's. And that's why we ought halt the "my manufacturers better" peeing contest. Because it's like hydrogen. It's not going nowhere.
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They sighted direction & intent for at least a decade in the future. How is that even remotely similar to stating a goal for that generation shortly before its rollout? It's not. You can't just pretend no other automaker is also working on secondary project involving fuel-cells either.

How does that influence GM's effort with Bolt to spite Tesla? That sacrifice GM has chosen (cannibalizing Volt for the sake of Bolt) is what we've been discussing. How can "better" be avoided if you are trying to constructively find a solution... unless you think all ideas currently on the table will fail to attract ordinary consumers.

 

EPA size classes is based upon total interior volume. Most of a brand's compact cars(Cruze, Corolla, etc.) are actually midsize by EPA. The comes up a little short of the cut off. The Prime gets just over it. The midsize class start is 110 cubic feet; the Volt is 109, and Prime 111. The Prius would likely fall into the EPA compact if it was a sedan.

For more EPA size class fun, the Sonic would be viewed as a subcompact by most car shoppers; it's a size smaller than the Cruze. The 2013 hatchback has enough interior space to be a midsize car by the EPA. GM now categorizes it as a station wagon instead of car now, which is only divided into small and large by the EPA.

Going back to the Bolt, GM could have called it a midsize car if they hadn't also went with station wagon for it.

Cadillac is GM's luxury brand, and it does bring advances to car tech, or at least allows the new stuff to be sold at a better margin. Buick is upscale Chevy, like Mercury was to Ford. The Buick name plate could have been cut, with some of its models going to Cadillac as the entry level models, Like Lexus has entry level and ridiculously priced cars. Buick though is hugely popular in China, which is a large and growing market. So it survived the axe.

Research was done about axing GMC. Either because the GMC "professional grade" marketing was so successful, or because of spite over feelings of abandonment, 20% of GMC owners would buy a Ford over a Chevy truck.

GM going under would have been worse in terms of losses.

A paid consultant supposedly told GM that if they wanted Chevy to be a world brand they should change Opel, Barina, and Vauxhall to Chevy. GM wussed out on it. Likely over hurting current fans of the brands feelings.

I covered why the American brands that were kept weren't axe above. Though I don't see what the difference between the Tahoe and Suburban is beyond the rear door.

Having the same brand name won't end different model names for the same car though. The Toyota Yaris and Prius c are the Vitz and Aqua in Japan. The Prius v is the Prius Plus or Prius Alpha depending on market. The North American and Chinese Corolla is a bigger car than the one in Japan, there Axio and Fielder is added to denote the sedan and wagon. The US is getting the Corolla iM for the wagon, but it is actually the Auris, but called a Corolla in Australia. The Yaris iA is a Mazda2 sedan.

So asking current and potential owners what think needs to be improved on the gen1 Volt is a poor tool for product development then? GM shouldn't have placed a fifth seat in the rearor improved the efficiency, because that was what the enthusiasts wanted, and they in no way represent potential future sales, nor the views of the 'mainstream'. Perhaps they should have designed the gen2 Volt for the Japanese market?

Yeah, all those SUVs and four door pick ups have only four seats.

Have you heard of how many Pick trucks are being sold. Ford sold over 700 thousand last year, and will again this year. GM's number aren't far behind. Those not buying pick ups are choosing SUVs and crossovers. The big discounts on cars is likely cheaper than buying credits form others or paying the fines for the drag those trucks have their CAFE rating.

The Envision is made in China. I can see why that might require more incentives to sell. The American public was hesitant to buy Japanese at first.

Many of the traditional car dealers don't want to sell a BEV. Individually, they might not see the investment for the CCS charger and other steps they have to take to carry the Bolt worth it at this time. Their associations though, are the ones fighting Tesla and getting hurdles placed in the company's way to selling in some states.

Toyota's goals for the PiP were over 60k a year, with 40k at home and most of the rest in the US. 2012 ended with 10,970 sold in Japan, and 12,750 in the US. Japan crashed to less than half that amount after that, and the US peaked at 13,264.

60k is also the number projected for the Prime, split equally between Japan and the US. The initial US sales look good, so they might make it here.

How is offering a BEV in addition to a PHEV a bad thing? Should Toyota have stuck to just the Prius as their hybrid? The plug in segment sales growth improves when new options are available to consumers. Same with hybrids. Its simple, more choice means a better chance of converting a traditional car buyer.

Will the Volt lose some previous owners and potential buyers to the Bolt? Um, yes. I'm sure many interested in the Volt would dump the ICE if there was a feasible option for their situation. Even with a range over 200 miles, a BEV still means making changes others might not be able or ready too. Bolt will also steal sales that might have gone to the Leaf and i3, but there also people that would have liked to have bought those other cars, but the range didn't work for them.

Will the Prius lose sales to the Prime? Most definitely, and it will likely be a larger percentage than the Volt loses to the Bolt. More people can take advantage of the full tax credit, and the comparative prices mean the credit makes the effective price the same. Throw the incentives in some states, the Prime becomes cheaper than the Prius, and buying it becomes a no brainer. Even if they never intend to plug in. Considering the margins on the two cars, Toyota would be losing some profit for every Prius sale that goes Prime.

 

Prius PHV was a mid-cycle update, rolled out allowing for change based on market response, with gen-2 already well into development. At the very same time, Toyota introduced Prius V and Prius C. Additionally, prior to gen-2 rollout, Toyota also introduced RAV4 hybrid.

We most definitely didn't see anything of the sort from GM for product diversity. It was a one-size-fits-all solution. They bet the farm on Volt, which hasn't achieved mainstream sales rates. Bolt doesn't have high-volume expectations either. That's why what's happening now comes into question. What should we expect from GM?

We know Toyota will be promoting Prime. The potential to draw new interest is clear. It's not a regular Prius with a larger pack and a plug. There's opportunity with this unique & affordable configuration, even in a market favoring low gas prices and little desire to reduce consumption.

What is there to attract ordinary consumers to Volt or Bolt who simply aren't interested in spending much for getting a plug? It's similar to the problem hybrid have always had, but amplified due to the tax-credit dependency.

In other words, how will growth be achieved?

 

It Toyota wants to promote the Prime, they need to market it as a car not as something different. There is no need to pud Hybrids in their own category. Most people are looking for a Toyota car not specifically a Hybrid. At least that is true for the larger market.

 

how do we know toyota will be promoting the prime? no tv commercials, uninformed and uneducated dealers, rumors of manufacturing delays from dealers, primes hidden in the back of the lot where no one can see them, test drives with discharged hybrid batteries. i know, it's cheaper to offer a 1k rebate, than accomplish any of those things.

 

yes, they are very desirous of your car, at the right price.

 

But that isn't what is happening

The Bolt and even Prime have validated the Volt offering to the average consumer.

As the bolt has rolled out many newbies have shown up on the volt forum saying they wanted to buy a Bolt but found the Volt to be more practical and indeed as the Bolt has been hyped the Volt has seen sales improve despite the worst car market in recent times (not talking SUV s)

The more electrified drivetrains we see the more acceptance we will see.

I do not think we are in an either or place, but with the sedan market ending all non suvs will see an uphill battle.