BT Stiffening Plate Review

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ScottR @ Aug 4 2006, 09:14 AM) [snapback]297703[/snapback]</div>

Sorry your a bit slow.. I'll remind you of the statement I resonded to:

Maybe this isn't a logic issue... how about some common sense?

The person that creates his own reality certainly denies everyone elses as his suspercedes and overides it.

How can two different realities exist?..... Truth is truth...... period...

We all don't get to create our own truth. Sorry... you or your idols are not God.

Now.. back to the plate....... when so many people have been happy with the plate, those that deny everyone elses reality will never get it.

Sounds like your logic is suffering abit eh?

The beautiful thing about deception is that those who suffer with it how no clue they have it!

This is not a moral issue, its only an issue of reality.

If you don't want the plate, don't buy it and don't try to persuade others from buying it...... you are only doing them a diservice....... maybe thats your chief objective?

It seems you have issues with logic anyway....

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Aug 4 2006, 12:24 PM) [snapback]297711[/snapback]</div>

Yes, and the statement about creating your own reality applied to you, not me. This is where your logic fails. You are the one who said "the enemy are the ones who trust figures more than people." To which I responded with the quote of someone who said something very similar, someone who denigrated "reality" and people who believe that they can understand things by a "judicious study of discernible reality."

You're doing the same, buddy, scorning a request for facts. Forget reality (which is what facts and figures represent), you wish to create your own reality based on belief, not "figures." I, on the other hand, have asked for the "judicious study of discernible reality."

Again, wrong. All I have repeatedly asked for is--yes--figures. Facts. Information. You are the one guilty of creating your own "truth"; I have been asking for objective truth. Some people claim that copper bracelets relieve their arthritis. Good for them. But the science, and a good deal of independent, scientific testing, refutes the claimed efficacy. Which will I believe, the "happy customers" who wish to believe it works, or the objective evidence that it does not? Simple: I will accept the truth, not anecdotes. In all these discussions, I have asked for testable, repeatable results, or a sound theory as to why it works. The former has been entirely lacking, and so far only donee has been graceful enough to try to offer the latter. Though I am not convinced, I have still remained open to good evidence to so convince me.

 

If you have arthritis, you would probrably be afraid to spend 20 bucks to see if a bracelet would help you too.

The funny thing about this is that you cannot see its not about supposed facts completely.

If someone did provide all the lab tests that proved it worked, you may try it and feel no results?

Just face it.... you're cheap and afraid to spend the money without absolute proof you won't loose your money. Right?

You're a funny boy!

I think I've proven my point as you are a prime example.


Not that your evil or anything... as I said, this is not a moral issue,....... just that you should open yourself up to things you don't understand and not try to convert those about issues you don't understand or have not proven yourself.

You seem like the type I see marching on the streets about political issues they don't have a clue about.

So many want to lead the world and they can't even lead thier own life and family out of ruins.

There are many out here with a good track record and those are the ones who should be believed or at least given credible consideration when they say the Plate is good.

But you haven't been around long enough to know any of those veterans on PC. Thats ok.. you're learning.... everybody has to somehow.

Just try not to make a fool of yourself too much until you do.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hyo silver @ Aug 3 2006, 02:59 PM) [snapback]297316[/snapback]</div>

I wouldn't mind finding someone with a stock Prius to help with testing the plate. It's easy enough to take off and install. I don't have anything to measure the results, but I figure, i cou;d run the car through a curve marked off with cones in a parking lot and film the results. I know there's a few local Prius owners on Priuschat, but I realize that most people are busy and/or don't really want to modify their car.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Presto @ Aug 4 2006, 10:20 AM) [snapback]297743[/snapback]</div>

Hi Presto... if you put your location beneath your avatar it will help folks as to whether to volunteer for such a task to help.

I would be glad to help, but I don't know if we live close.

 

Do many performance enhancing suspension parts manufactures do double blind tests? K&N air filters has all sorts of data about their performance increase but I believe most people don't see much difference. It seems like with most mods you need to decide for yourself if it's worth the money. Buy the plate and install it, if you don't think the results are worth the money, put it up for sale here. It seems like the most you will be out is $50. if that much.

BT Tech only carries a couple of products why not question Sigma Automotive on the description of most of their performance increasing parts.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NuShrike @ Aug 3 2006, 03:28 PM) [snapback]297326[/snapback]</div>

The plate was a significant addition. I rode on the plate for about 3 monts before the Sportivo came in. In that time, i completely wore down my Integrities due to the increased stability and being able to take turns 50-100% faster than without the plate. I drive for the sake of driving, and the benefit of the plate was instantly noticed on the first turn after installation. Yes, my car handles awesome now because of the other upgrades, but I can't deny what the plate did for me.

 

.It works for me!!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Presto @ Aug 4 2006, 10:29 AM) [snapback]297752[/snapback]</div>

Though I've never owned a sportcar, I've been driving for 31 years and I now feel my car has the sportscar feel far superior than any of my other cars.. it corners perfect and is so responsive I can dodge a grasshopper on the freeway if I want.

I always look forward to driving my car.. esp on long trips.

 

Guys, I want to jump in here before things get too personal. ScottR, you and others have asked for imperial absolute evidence and specifications that show our stiffening plate will improve your car by X percentage. Unfortunately in order to give the exact information you seek would require very extensive AND expensive testing such as resonant frequency measurements and analysis of the frame and such. Certainly the manufacturers have access to these types of tests but at a great cost.

I have already posted an FEA (finite element analysis) that shows how our stiffing plate is over 1600X stronger than the factory OEM plate. This extra strength translates into minimal flexing where the brace mounts to the frame rails. This greatly minimized the amount of torsional and compressional twisting that occurs at this point when driving. The factory plates flexes so the above forces propagate throughout the car and are easily felt.

Like I have mentioned many times before if one feels that their car is fine and do not need any improvements I think it would be wise to move on and enjoy what you have. For many here as well as myself I wanted my car to handle substantially better so the stiffening plate was developed for these needs.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BT Tech @ Aug 4 2006, 01:38 PM) [snapback]297758[/snapback]</div>

Thank you for your reply, Brian. Really, I don't need anything so fancy as in the first paragraph. I don't doubt that your plate is stiffer than the OEM. What I question--and I will again emphasize that's question and not dismiss--is the effect of such a product under the circumstances. I do like great handling in cars (more so than straight line acceleration), and though I willingly made a concession in that department when buying the Prius, I would be more than happy to regain some of that handling I so enjoy.

If you would care to comment, I was finally able to contact a friend who used to be involved in race car design. He moved across the continent several years ago, and it took me a bit to get in touch with him. His analysis of some of the issues touched on (he was not directly familar with your specific work on Corvettes and so responded more generally):

There is a return to argument by analogy - Monty Python's duck floating
analysis - one doesn't have to gather data and work. This type of
"analysis" doesn't make sense if hard data exists.

In this case, the hatchback shape is somewhat of a red herring (arguing by
analogy - one would not believe that Saab hatches could have won any rally
races against the putatively better handling sedans).

I believe what is the starting point for analysis is the construction style
of the vehicle: 1) body on frame 2) unibody, or 3) monocque. It is really
the body on frame where such stiffer/stronger rung on the basic ladder
shaped frame adds most to the overall car stiffness. And even here, to
replace on existing rung using the same bolt holes (forces are exerted over
same spans) can add only a minor component to stiffness and handling.
Welding the plate (now we are talking added force distribution and loading)
would be better. Welding a wider plate is still better. Welding a T, I or
square tube would be even better.

And keeping the existing plate but adding other plates appropriately would
be better.

But welding a body structure (unibody) onto the "frame" is even better yet.
The entire body (except for car in front of firewall) is a 3D (as the guy
wrote - a very complex structure) structure not likely to be affected by the
minimal increased stiffness of the Al plate replacement underneath.

In a unibody construction, the front is usually a substructure bolted or
welded to the unibody. Thus, the addition of a brace across the struts
substantially adds stiffness (adding the missing top part of the frame
corresponding to the roof to box in the engine compartment).

Of course, monocque - where the engine and tranny are integral parts of the
car (stiffness) structure is too expensive to be widely used.

One point - the "braces" added to Corvettes for racing hardly consists of
merely replacing an existing brace. I think the writer is talking about the
roll cage assembly that is added to the structure.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BT Tech @ Aug 4 2006, 10:38 AM) [snapback]297758[/snapback]</div>

I have to agree here. Frankly the only real, acceptable test that I can see is to get one, and use it for a month or so. After all, we are different in where and how we drive and will react differently. Even figures from a test track may be as accurate to you as an EPA mileage estimate. If you do a test drive someone else's Prius with the BT plate, you may get an idea, but will have to remember that your Prius will be different in that the tires (not all are the same age, type and inflation) and weight (what's in the trunk, how many passengers, etc) won't be the same. If it works, keep it and if it doesn't, sell it.

 

I'm convinced the plate 'works' because I've tried it and my seat tells me so. But I understand such personal anecdotes and lack of data are less than helpful. Is there any quantitative testing a few Prius owners could get together and do that falls somewhere between 'seat of the pants' and 'extensive and expensive'?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Aug 4 2006, 10:25 AM) [snapback]297747[/snapback]</div>

Strange.. my location is in my profile (Vancouver, BC), and I'm pretty sure i've seen my location on my posts, but it's not there now. Is there something i have to enable?


EDIT: okay.. just noticed a 2nd location field in the profile. MODs... i don't think we need redundant location fields

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hyo silver @ Aug 4 2006, 11:11 AM) [snapback]297784[/snapback]</div>

Yes, I would suggest comparing lap times on a track with and without the plate. B)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(esskay @ Aug 4 2006, 04:05 PM) [snapback]297809[/snapback]</div>

Slalom times would be a more appropriate test I think. Lap times include too much variability in the non manuevering portions of the test. Slalom is all manuever time.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(donee @ Aug 4 2006, 05:49 PM) [snapback]298007[/snapback]</div>

Fair enough! Or even better, do them both!!

 

This is very interesting. I have been reading replies in this thread off and on. Not every response, but some here and there. Lots of people say they feel some difference. Others say they would like empirical evidence into the effect of the plate before buying it (nothing is wrong with that, mind you). Now, someone may have brought this up already...but what would happen if, somehow, the requested evidence WAS available...and stated what BT has said..that it helps the car handle better, etc. Then..."you" buy the plate, put it on..and don't feel a difference. Then what?

Personally, I am leaning towards purchasing since my wife and daughter are in the car more than I am, I think it may be beneficial to have the plate. And above all, even with items that have scientific backup, I still check out EPINIONS, AMAZON, and newsgroups...to see what real people say about the item before I purchase it. I guess his plate is just flipped-side of the situation. You get the user opinions before the scientific data. Besides...my brother-in-law (he' an amateur racer) read about the plate (I sent him the link) and is dying for me to buy it so he can put it on for me.

Ok, done rambling....

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tripod137 @ Aug 5 2006, 12:44 PM) [snapback]298226[/snapback]</div>

Under the hypothetical situation that we have evidence of a significant difference ("significant" meaning, for example, something more than that the slalom speed goes up by 1/100 of a second), and that I bought/installed it and felt no difference, I'd accept it worked but that either the difference was too subtle for me to detect or that I was having a reverse psychological effect that made me disinclined to feel the empirically measurable effect.

I'm an epinions member also, and what I try to use it for is more than "I like it/I hate it" statements, but rahter for insights into quirks or shortcomings that aren't always mentioned "by the science." Perhaps that's not really a personal/subjective thing, but a notable detail. E.g. "even though product X says that it can do so-and-so, the manual's fine prints says it can't do it under such-and-such common circumstances."

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ScottR @ Aug 5 2006, 01:11 PM) [snapback]298236[/snapback]</div>

If it works, you're happy. If it doesn't, send it back.

Provided the retail establishment from which you purchased the article in question is not disinclined to acquiesce to your request, indubitably.