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Buffett’s BYD Threatened by Prius in China Hybrid Shift

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by cwerdna, Mar 14, 2013.

  1. Sergiospl

    Sergiospl Senior Member

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  2. ralleia

    ralleia Active Member

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    I would hazard to say that the vast majority of Chinese who are in the situation of the intense smog are less interested in minor measures to reduce the pollution long-term and more interested in individually getting to the point where they can get the hell out of that situation.
    I have one friend in that position now.
    Everyone wants clean air.
    Not everyone can afford it.
    We are very lucky in the U.S. to have had the surplus of past decades to be able to improve our water and air quality.
    We need to be circumspect before we assume that every society has the same economic privilege as we enjoy.
     
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  3. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

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    It was worse than what sergiospl quoted in January 2013. From Air pollution in Beijing goes off the index

    Crazy!
     
  4. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    Who are we to tell them?

    Let them choke if that's their choice.

    The people will work it out sooner or later, though to be fair, I doubt it. People complain about the air quality in cities in the UK, yet 60% of cars sold are diesels. Even with the new cleaner diesels being sold, one new diesel emits the same Nox as 20 petrol cars.

    The old hippie adage "if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem" rings so true.
     
  5. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

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    ^^^
    Some if it might not be worked out by the people themselves or they might not realize how. For example, there are very strict energy related guidelines in California for new construction referred to as Title 24 (Building Energy Efficiency Program - California Energy Commission). Supposedly, the policies here have kept per capita energy consumption nearly flat in CA and thus reducing the need for many new power plants. The Rosenfeld curve is usually referenced such as at California Leads the Nation in Energy Efficiency - Part 2: Myth-Busting the Naysayers | Sierra Martinez's Blog | Switchboard, from NRDC.

    The title 24 stuff dictates all sorts of stuff like minimum insulation required, vacancy and occupancy (motion) sensors for lighting, max lighting power density depending on how the space is used, efficiency of HVAC systems, etc.

    Since China depends so heavily on coal for electricity generation, if they could reduce the rise in electricity consumption, they could slow down or stop building new coal plants.

    To me, it seems logical to phase out the use of those coal heaters and stoves in homes in regions that are upwind of areas that are known to have pollution problems (both from emissions and due to topography and smog being trapped in certain areas). If they switched those folks to a cleaner burning fuel...

    As for who are we to tell them? Well, we don't have to tell them, but in places like Los Angeles, the air quality apparently improved a LOT due to EPA and CARB (California Air Resources Board) policies and mandates. I just found this article on the improvements there: How Los Angeles Began to Put its Smoggy Days Behind | Laws That Shaped LA | Land of Sunshine | KCET.
     
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  6. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    That article was full of distortions. I don't quite get it. Why would the Chinese government give huge incentives targeted to a Japanese car maker. I thought Japanese cars did not sell well there. THe article includes at least part of that, Toyota only has a 5% market share. They don't give any statistics on prius sales in china, but this is the last I heard

    Toyota Prius sales lag in China
    They are not doing well. Has this changed? Toyota did not break out Chinese hybrid sales from 2012 figures.

    As for byd not selling many EVs, well yes. I heard their EV was very bad. That doesn't mean the chinese are going to kill domestics and partnerships and subsidies the Japanese. I would expect any rules helping hybrids to be targeted in a way that helped domestics, not in ways that specifically helps toyota. That means they will still charge a tarrif for Toyota to import the hybrid parts from Japan.

    When I first went to china the bulk of the polution was from high sulfur coal with no scrubbers. Getting people to buy japanese cars will not put scrubbers on those plants.

    Update: Here is some more information of low prius sales in china
    Lexus CT 200h outsells Toyota Prius in China! | Kaizen Factor
    That is only 150/month. Not bad for the ct200 though
     
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  7. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    We have been reducing per capita electricity use in austin, of course population is growing, so we are building new power. California simply is not producing enough power, and importing it. If they built more natural gas ccgt they could import less coal based electricity and actually reduce fuel use and pollution, but policies keep companies from investing in natural gas infrastructure.

    China uses only about half of the electicity per capita compared to california. I think the figure was 500 Chinese use about as much electricity as al gore. They need to build these plants cleaner and more efficient though.

    I think carb's Mary Nichols dictating to the chinese would likely end with her deported or in prison Didn't california's deregulation/regulation cause massive blackout a little over a decade ago. They need to put some sound policies in place, but in a Chinese way. That means giving them inforation cheaply about how to clean up the environment, and how healthy people are more productive people.
     
  8. Rebound

    Rebound Senior Member

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    China doesn't seem ready to attack pollution. Their biggest source appears to be coal-based electricity, so EV's won't make a significant dent in pollution.

    If they create a nuclear, solar, or other (air)-clean energy strategy, then EV's might make sense. I think it's really a question of whether they decide that EV's are a future which they should invest in for the export market. If they feel they can dominate the battery and/or vehicle manufacturing sectors, then they will make the investments.
     
  9. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    +1
    I did read today that Toyota is setting up 2 joint ventures in china. These might get toyota's goal of selling hybrids in china, and china's goal of getting chinese companies with toyota's technology for export. I have no idea how successful they will be, but the chinese government is not going to do anything to help the prius with proprietary parts imported from japan.
     
  10. Sergiospl

    Sergiospl Senior Member

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    Stringent New Fuel Economy Standards Imposed In China - HybridCars.com
     
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  11. massparanoia

    massparanoia Active Member

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    You can't afford a Prius when you make $2 a day building iPhones. Lets get real here.