C-Max hybrid to get 47mpg both city/hwy

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by fotomoto, Aug 7, 2012.

  1. rkk

    rkk Junior Member

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    Have you reset the lifetime mpg since receiving the car? Another C-max owner suggested resetting it, since it may be factoring in all the short shuffling the car went through at the dealers and during delivery.[/quote]

    Yes I did.

    "C-Max hybrid may be more prone to the low temp since it lacks the Exhaust Heat Recovery system. Gen3 HSD introduced EHR to address extreme cold."

    It was 33 degrees here this morning. I couldn't hit 40 mpg on the way to work. Hopefully this is not a sign of things to come.​
     
  2. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    I doubt that is the way the system works. The EHR in the prius mainly reduces the energy and pollution when the car is warming up. This may help on short trips, but it depends on how well the c-max does using the generator at start up and EV driving at the end. The larger engine and extra rolling resistance also should contribute to the c-max having a larger start up cost.

    The EHR is part of an aggressive cooled EGR system that may help make the prius engine more efficient at high and low power levels. Ford decided to save money and not add this system. Ford said they are looking at it in the future for their ecoboost and hybrid models. Maybe the next generation.:)

    There is no way of knowing but I would guess from the epa numbers the 2L ice + 35kw lithium battery is more efficient at high power than the prius. Unfortunately with 188 available hp on 17" wheels the driver may drive it more aggressively:) than a prius. That will hurt it in the real world unless the driver controls him/her self.

    Simply the cd - .30 versus .25 will reduce highway fuel economy, and IIRC the A is slightly larger on the c-max as well. That means keeping speed down is more important for best mileage on a c-max than a prius. The prius v and prius c also suffer compared to the prius liftback here.
    YMMV. I expect some to greatly exceed EPA like they do in the prius. I would expect more of the hypermilers to go toward the prius though. Driving normally the prius liftback has some extra things, but that high 62mph ice forced on speed will allow many to pulse and glide at higher speeds and get great results. Many will buy it for the differences to the prius though, and find the mileage good enough. Choices are good, and for the average driver I expect the difference will be more than the 4mpg between c-max and prius liftback, but lets take the early few sample numbers with a grain of salt. It will take at least 6 months to get good real world data.
     
  3. HeyKB

    HeyKB Not so new member

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    I've posted over in the Ford hybrid forum, but I want to weigh in here regarding the C Max's real world mileage.

    We've had our C Max for about 3 weeks and haven't really piled up big miles, but we've certainly been driving it around town. My wife and I are both experienced Prius drivers and that matters a ton.

    When we got the C Max, the lifetime avg mpg was in the high 20's because it had been a demo car for a few hundred miles. It's now in the high 30's and our typical trip is averaging in the 40+ mpg range. I got 52 mpg on one trip. As we learn the differences (60 mph EV, for example) I expect we will routinely hit 45+ mpg like we do on our Prius.

    Being a Prius owner/driver is a huge advantage and I have to figure that all the "real world" mileage we read from reviewers and others will be exceeded routinely by those of us who have been driving hybrids.
     
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  4. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web i3 and Prime

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    I found the C-MAX accelerator response similar to being in PWR mode of my wife's ZVW30. It was 'twitchier' than I wanted for efficient driving.

    Bob Wilson
     
  5. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    Please see this thread (posted before you joined PriusChat). EHR was first announced with Lexus RX450h. Gen3 Prius was launched a few months after that. Nice graphs and charts have been lost but here is text:

    Another key to improvements in fuel economy comes from the Exhaust Heat Recovery System. An important part of the hybrid control strategy is to stop the engine when it’s not needed, for example in low power demand conditions in city driving. But in winter driving, engine heat is needed to warm the interior cabin and demand on the electric drive motors will be naturally higher in these conditions, especially during warm-up. When temperatures drop below 0˚ C, battery output is also reduced and drive motor performance suffers accordingly.

    To counter this challenge, Lexus developed an efficient system that recovers exhaust heat to quickly raise coolant temperature during warm-up. This allows the engine to stop sooner, helping to improve fuel economy during this phase. For example, testing at -5˚ C on a typical driving pattern (below) showed that the engine could be stopped a full 1,000 seconds (over 15 minutes) earlier than the previous model.

    Lithium battery is more sensitive to low temp so it may compound to the lack of EHR in C-Max hybrid. The point of this discussion is to better understand the issue and in order for the owner to work around it, if possible.

    ** It is not a Ford bashing or "Toyota is the best" post -- I have been accused of.
     
  6. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    Thanks, keep us posted. How many miles is that "typical trip"?

    Also, I would be curious if Ford engineers were able to add logic to learn and adjust engine operation, from the change of seasons (temp drop). Only owners like you would be able to observe and judge so I figure I would mention it.
     
  7. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    I highlighted the key part, which is what I said this mainly helps during warmup. That was the point I was making. I have seen charts in the past, and once the engine is warm enough and EHR system doesn't do much. I don't the prius or c-max needs that full 15 minutes to warm up, but ehr will help during this phase. The c-max looks like it runs the ice harder during this phase to warm up and charges the battery. This may actually warm up the ice and cat faster than the prius. We need to wait until some instrumented tests to find out the full warm up routine. The Prius looks to have a superior but more expensive and complicated system here.

    I don't really know what the c-max's lithium battery performance is versus the prius's nimh. The c-max looks like it will use more gas and less electricity during warm up, from the current information about programming. Whether the c-max can then use this electricity in an efficient way may depend on your trip. YMMV.

    I know for me hot weather + air-conditioning cause the biggest start up hit. The prius does not seem to want to generate electricity for my air conditioning and drive on the hilly highway.:) It does much better warmed up and when the route is down hill. If you have a long city route without many stops with the c-max, it may not take much of a hit. Short cold routes are going to cause more of a penalty.

    The c-max and fusion have active grill shutters, which should help warm up the ice and reduce drag during periods when the ice is not too hot.

    Advantage prius for fuel economy - EHR+cooled EGR
    Advantage c-max for fuel economy - Active grill shutters + lithium + route analysizing software

    Let's hope the next generation prius gets the extras the c-max has, and the next generation c-max gets an aggressive EHR + cooled EGR system. In the engergi the lack of EHR & EGR makes less of a difference.
     
  8. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Have you checked your tire pressure recently? Remember it will drop with colder weather, and rolling resistance will go up with that drop.
     
  9. HeyKB

    HeyKB Not so new member

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    We haven't taken any road trips in the C Max yet. Most trips are 2-25 miles. There's a decent combination of neighborhood and artery driving mixed in, though as you might expect the shortest trips are all largely 30 mph roads.

    I'll keep an eye on our mileage as the weather drops.
     
  10. rkk

    rkk Junior Member

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    No, I haven't checked it recently. I will, thanks for the heads up. I also found this today:

    Ford C-Max Hybrid requires disciplined driving to hit 47 mpg

    I was able to go the original article earlier but now it said it is for subscribers only. There must be a limit to how many articles you can view for free.
     
  11. kechair

    kechair New Member

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  12. rkk

    rkk Junior Member

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  13. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    I think this is quite revealing. If you drive above 62mph, Prius v is a better choice.

    The secret sauce to Ford’s new hybrid recipe is to fit a larger traction motor than the Toyotas’ in its continuously variable transaxle (118 horsepower, versus 80 in the Prius V). This, along with a larger and more powerful lithium-ion battery pack (1.4-kWh capacity), enables the C-Max to go full EV all the way to 62 mph, some 20 mph higher than the Prius. This ability to shut down the engine at higher speeds helps in four of the five EPA fuel-economy schedules that have top speeds reaching no higher than 60.

    Back in the real world, however, we ran a 67-mile out-and-back drive with the cruise control set at 75 mph, and the C-Max’s trip computer reported only 34 mpg. At 32 mpg, our overall observed fuel economy in the C-Max was even lower than the 35 mpg we saw from the last Prius V we tested.

    The C-Max took 191 feet to halt from 70 mph, 16 more than the Prius V.

    Despite feeling more engaging than any Prius and wearing decent-size tires (225/50R-17 Michelin Energy Savers), the C-Max registered only 0.77 g on the skidpad, right there with the 0.78 g of the Prius V.
     
  14. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    Since I got PiP for $25k, I started to compare it with C-MAX hybrid.

    PiP can do the same 62 mph in EV mode. PiP also has over 3x larger battery capacity (4.4 vs 1.4 kWh) with more power (38 vs 35 kW) in a lighter (3,165 vs 3,607 lbs) vehicle.

    At 65mph, PiP gets 50 MPG (in HV mode after battery depleted) so I made a good choice. **self validation** :whistle:
     
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  15. John H

    John H Senior Member

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    How many of these comparisons are using the onboard computed mpg rather than actual measured fuel consumption and mileage?
     
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  16. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    That definitely wasn't what I read. They seemed to like the car quite a bit better than the prius v, with the caveat -
    Then to your point if you drive above 62 will you burn more gas than a prius v? YMMV
    It seems they accelerated harder in the c-max, because it could from the write up. That may burn more gas. The c-max also takes quite a hit if you are going 75mph. They didn't really test it at 65. It won't really brake or outmaneuver better than a prius v according to instrumentation.

    If you drive like car and driver your better off with a tdi. The prius c got 39mpg, the prius v 35 mpg, and the c-max 32 mpg. It appears that you need to drive the c-max and these other hybrids differently than car and driver does to get your over 40 mpg:) I think the eco-moder people will tell us what that is soon.
     
  17. Husker4theSpurs

    Husker4theSpurs Active Member

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    Hey guys,

    Wanted to stop in with a longer term report (over 30,000 miles in less than 11 months). I am not trying to stir things up (there are things i really miss about my Prius) just wanted to give a report after close to a year with the C-Max.

    Recently Ford put out a software update that raised the EV threshold to 85mph as well as other "tweaks" to help it achieve better fuel economy. For reference I traded In a Gen 3 2010 Prius with Package Five when purchasing a loaded C Max.

    My longer term musings:
    - C Max is noticeably more "fun" (relatively speaking of course) to drive and more comfortable in general in both city and highway driving.
    - the Prius makes better use of its space. It seemed there were a lot of nooks and crannies to fit things in random areas in the Prius however headroom is significantly better in the C Max especially for rear passengers. The rear bench in the C Max is not exactly super comfortable however.
    - C Max much more stable at Interstate speeds and significantly less road noise as well.
    - the niceties in the C Max are noticeably nicer. The seat heaters are GREAT versus the Prius. The seats are substantially more comfortable. The interior feels more upscale and less full of hard plastics.
    - the C Max handles the snow and ice significantly better (mostly due to weight I'm sure)

    As far as fuel economy I estimate the C Max obtains 6-8 mpg less than the Prius in most situations. I have received a slight bump in efficiency with the software update and can obtain just under 50mpg in town with effort (Prius for me would've been 56mpg). Interstate driving around here for me results in 35-37 mpg in the C Max (driving 79mph). In the Prius this resulted in 43-45 mpg. Highway trips at 64mph result in 39-41 mpg - Prius would've been 47-49 mpg. We just came back from a 5000 mile road trip involving lots of interstate travel and averaged 38mpg ... the Prius averaged 44-46mpg on a trip like that prior.

    Summary - the mpg difference is significant and I definitely miss the better fuel economy, however I would make the change back if I truly wanted to. From my perspective and given our driving habits we are sticking with the C Max - the added comfort and road experience is worth it to us. My wife especially says it feels safer to her on the Interstate commute. That's not likely true to most on here who appreciate efficiency above all else. I can't say I blame you and that I wouldn't still love to have a Prius.

    The C Max is far from perfect ... The SYNC issues most complain about are a pain from time to time. Like I said despite more headroom there are less usable nooks and crannies (I used to put a duffel bag behind the driver's seat in my Prius with the back seats folded down. There's no room for anything of substance there in the C Max in the same situation. And as is the main concern the fuel economy isn't up to snuff especially considering the original EPA reports by Ford (which they've since adjusted). I guess I will be receiving a $550 check due to the fuel economy issue.

    Again, just wanted to check in with a longer report. I look forward to checking out the new Prius when it arrives!
     
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  18. Husker4theSpurs

    Husker4theSpurs Active Member

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    I will also say ... Cold weather affects my fuel economy in the C Max more than the Prius ... The lack of engine exhaust heating system does make a difference.
     
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  19. Sergiospl

    Sergiospl Senior Member

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    I think an average 42-43 mpg in the C-Max after the software update and a $ is good.
     
  20. Stevevee

    Stevevee Active Member

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    Good follow-up, which seems much more in sync with the real world. I agree the Cmax is fun to drive. But two reasons I didn't get it or the Prius Gen III is space. I neede more room, which was the purpose for a new vehicle. So I bought the Prius V, knowing full well it couldn't get the better mileage of the Gen III. But space it has in abundance.

    From your numbers posted above, my new Prius V still does better than yours for mileage. My roads are not flat, and my longest highway trips have been through the Green Mountains and the hills of New Hampshire, Massachusetts and Connecticut. At 65 on the highway I'm usually in the mid 40's, hills depending, and my longest highway trip at speeds 75 or so resulted in a 3-day average of 45.5 after 600 plus miles. The only time I averaged less than 40 is when I really pushed it with wanton regard for mileage.

    It's obvious why Ford tries to compare the Cmax mileage with the V and not the lifthatch version. But Never discuss cargo room.

    But your priorities are straight, the CMAX is a fun rig to drive. It would just be nice if Ford was more honest. Another thing. Many Prius V drivers get better mileage than I do. I don't try to achieve the best mileage, nor do I need to work at it. Ford has really boxed themselves in here. Many non-hybrid owners are convinced that it's a lot of work to achieve the EPA ratings or anywhere close to them, because Ford said so. Many may not look at hybrids because of this. Some are still buying into the Fusion Hybrid's claimed 47/47/47 because they haven't changed them.

    While these measures may work for Ford in the short term (they have), it doesn't build a solid trust with present and potential hybrid owners. Meanwhile, Ford speaks to the Entire Hybrid Industry, when the numbers clearly show it's a Ford issue primarily, not Toyotas.

    Off the soapbox :) Enjoy your new car.
     
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