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California: Hydrogen And Zero-Emission Vehicles Push

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by bwilson4web, Aug 3, 2014.

  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    So apparently if you are willing to only drive in California, the fuel cell vehicles will be a great success. Good luck visiting any area beyond 150 miles outside of California.

    Bob Wilson
     
  2. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    if you live in california, there are no other states.:p
     
  3. drash

    drash Senior Member

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    Californians get to drive next to a mobile hydrogen refueler? :eek:
     
  4. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    $50 million . . . when I think how many PV-powered quick charge stations they could have installed with that money it makes me want to throw my hands up. Zero emission vehicles .... yea, when you don't count the natural gas. What crock.
    :(
    .
     
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  5. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Not really that much money compared to how much the state of california just flushes, but ,,,,,,,
    California: Hydrogen And Zero-Emission Vehicles Push | PriusChat

     
  6. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    What pollution does venting of hydrogen give/cause?

    I'm sure I've read that the highly compressed hydrogen tanks at a hydrogen filling station will slowly vent the fuel into the atmosphere. I appreciate this happens with petrol and that the emissions from a filling station can be significant. But I also read that hydrogen quickly escapes the confines of the high pressure tanks. Will this ever be a problem or will it quickly disappear? Or will they have to ban smoking within half a mile of the place?
     
  7. Stevevee

    Stevevee Active Member

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    Whatever they put their money on will dictate the type of information regarding environmental impact and cost stories they make up. Far too much of this happening nowadays.
     
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  8. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Hydrogen ignition has one of the widest ranges of ratios, 4-95% by volume. It really is wicked stuff.

    Bob Wilson
     
  9. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    Does it smell? Or will it catch a smoker by surprise?

    With petrol you can smell an increase in the fumes before it gets dangerous. Is hydrogen the same or will you be blissfully unaware of it until it's too late?
     
  10. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    :eek:
    Well... It is said smoking is bad for your health!:eek::eek::p

    Seriously though, I would be shocked if you could get the needed concentrations just from the normal leakage. Hydrogen is so light, I would expect it disperses very quickly.
     
  11. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    I don't think venting is necessary with compressed hydrogen. Some will escape when a car, or refilling truck, disconnects. It is just the nature of handling gases. Unintentional leaks may happen sooner than with natural gas due to hydrogen's physical properties.

    Liquid hydrogen would likely require venting. It will slowly warm up and boil in the tank. When the pressure builds, the gaseous portion gets vented to keep the rest chilled. It is more an issue on a car or tanker truck. The space and mass for insulation isn't as great a limitation for a stationary tank that is likely buried. A refueling station may even have active cooling of the tank.

    It doesn't seem adding an odorant, like to NG and propane, is possible with hydrogen intended for fuel cells. The stations should have sensors to detect levels that get too concentrated. Otherwise, the tiny bit released when the hose is disconnected from a car, quickly gets dispersed. From there 4/5ths of it will get 'eaten' by soil microbes, and the rest eventually goes into out space. Earth is too small to hold onto it.
    Soils control atmospheric hydrogen -- ScienceDaily
     
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  12. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    In a ventilated area, you know in a wharehouse or street, hydrogen is not classified as a pollutant. It is only dangerous if it is hot enough by the tank, which causes fire or explosion. It will find its way out of most areas and simply rise.

    Venting is done with liquid nitrogen, which is likely needed in the fueling infrastructure. Compressed hydrogen in 10,000 psi does not need venting. It should only vent because of a tank problem or collision.
     
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  13. drash

    drash Senior Member

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    No smell, taste or color. The only surprise the smoker would get is his skin suddenly cooking because the flame produced is an almost invisible blue. I would assume almost all refueling stations would have no roofs like Iceland. That way you don't have to worry about accumulation of hydrogen.
     
  14. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    But wouldn't that cause the tanks to get super hot in places like California or the people fueling their vehicle to get p**s wet through like in the UK?
     
  15. drash

    drash Senior Member

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    The tanks are usually buried but yeah customers will be exposed to the elements.
     
  16. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    I don't think an open roof is a problem with hydrogen, it will find its way up. One reason hydrogen tanks are so expensive is hydrogen is hard to contain. the roof should be high enough so that it is above the head of refuelers until it disipates, but it should only leak from the pump with a malfunnction.
     
  17. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    Range Anxiety?

    How many charging stations will 68 gigabucks buy?
    Court gives new life to California high-speed rail « CBS Sacramento
     
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  18. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    Industry uses H2 all the time all over the globe. Yes it is a flammable gas. But not a pollutant (as per AG) and not toxic.
    Of course, H2 rises quickly in air so we are not exposed to it generally. In some labs H2 is piped all over the place to many buildings as a high pressure gas, as if it were natural gas going homes, but the H2 pipes are nicer looking stainless steel professionally done. Other than that no special precautions although ventilation is generally good. I hate to say by comparison the nat gas pipes to my house look terrible to me.

    There are H2 flammability safety concerns, but seems to be me H2 is managed better, in more modern systems. than say natural gas. If we had to rate substances it would include safety profile vs. how we manage.

    If H2 safety managed poorly by FCV industry then FCV will fail. My guess is H2 safety getting very close attention.
     
    #18 wjtracy, Aug 4, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2014
  19. Troy Heagy

    Troy Heagy Member

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    Arizona is desert. Nevada is desert. Oregon is a nice place, but there are ~300 miles of redwoods in the way. Why would anyone leave California? ;) In Norway they have hydrogen stations along highways. Built by the government. If I was a skeptic I might say something like,

    "So apparently if you are willing to only drive in Norway, the fuel cell vehicles will be a great success. Good luck visiting any area beyond 150 miles outside of Norway." ;) :) :D

    Natural gas only takes 1 minute to pump into a Civic GX..... I wonder why hydrogen takes 15 minutes for a Hyundai FCV? Maybe because they are busy cracking the CNG into H2. (They'd save time if they just used the CNG directly.)
     
  20. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    Sweden have a small and growing network of them as do Denmark and Germany. So I guess you now have to change your comment that Norwegians can only drive their hydrogen car 150 miles outside of Germany (Belgium and Holland?) or east of Sweden. There are a handful of them across the UK, though not many and not easily accessible. Probably as easy to find and as well spaced out as the Tesla Superchargers.