California To Secede From U.S.A.

If California DID become an independent country, within weeks the conservatives in Orange County and the liberals in the Bay Area would be declaring a civil war...

 

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Who Cares!? More importantly who would be the new liberal president of your newly formed country.

I love it, noone really cares if California seceded, most are just worried about who would be president ....

I would guess that all the conservatives that would be left, would either move out or conform to the liberal goverment in Ecotopia.

The illegals would love it there, free gov healthcare to everyone, financial aid to those who do not wish to work, everyones welcome at Ecotopia the land is our goddes.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusguy04 @ Jan 14 2007, 11:27 AM) [snapback]375534[/snapback]</div>

Well, I care, for one. Personally, I don't live in California, but do live close enough that I can stand on my deck and throw rocks across the border (sometime, I do!). This is all academic, of course, because the chances of California seceding are rather low, but consider what it will do the the balance of power in the rest of the country.

You may not recall this, but the presidental limosine that went into service at the end of the Clinton administration had Washington D.C. plates reading "Taxation Without Representation", which is the motto of the D.C. statehood movement. As it stands now, Washington D.C. does not have any voting congressional representation. Bush, being against statehood for Washington D.C., had the plates replaced right after the inauguration. If Washington D.C. did gain statehood, their population would be represented by two new senators and at least one congressperson. Since the population of Washington D.C. is overwhelmingly Democratic, there is no doubt that the representatives would be Democrats. This isn't good for the Republican party.

OK, better get to the point, I guess. Why should you be concerned? Because a change anywhere in the country, be it the secession of California or Vermont, the splitting of Texas, or statehood for Washington D.C. may very well affect you more than you think. For example, in California, 88 cents of every tax dollar sent to Washington is spent to benefit the state. In Florida, for every dollar you send to Uncle Sam, the federal government spends $1.01 on Florida. Other states are higher... for every $1.00 a citizen of New Mexico pays in federal taxes, the state gets back $1.97. While Florida and New Mexico actually cost the federal government money, California contributes more to the federal coffers than they get back. So, what happens if California secedes and no longer pays federal taxes? These are the 1999 revenue numbers... I couldn't find later data, but it is probably around the same. On the other side of the spectrum, we're a very politically divided nation, and and change in that balance affects us severely. Look at Pelosi's 100 hours legislation. The Democrats hold on the house isn't that huge, and the senate was decided by a razor-thin vote margin. Anything that tips the balance anywhere in the country should be of vital interest to all of us.

Something to think about.

Dan

P.S. They can decide who their president is... I'm a Nevadan, not a Californian.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusguy04 @ Jan 14 2007, 02:27 PM) [snapback]375534[/snapback]</div>

Meanwhile, the only California county to go bankrupt is conservative Orange County.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(danoday @ Jan 14 2007, 03:00 PM) [snapback]375542[/snapback]</div>

Again, why would the Ecotopian's care what happens in the USA? They would become their own country, and you could sit on your back deck and watch the new life they would be enjoying...

Thats really nice that you feel so passionate, and have the figures but the rest would get by..

 

as someone who feels a deep connection with the cities of san diego (hometown), los angeles (it's a lifeforce in spite of its misgivings), portland (current home and grossly phenomenal town), seattle (my soulmate), and vancouver bc (oh, canada!)... i am in favour of this 'ecotopia'! thumbs up.


what i really wanted to share was this flash animation video. this discussion reminded me of the end of this vid. it's pretty much the most brilliant and funny thing EVER. worth repeated viewings :lol:

www.endofworld.net

ps. has cursing in it, but don't let that deter you.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(nicos @ Jan 14 2007, 10:48 AM) [snapback]375480[/snapback]</div>

Don't worry about it. Us Southerners will follow the North.

Maybe moving the Capitol South will be the appeasing force for unification?

But....I don't mind if it stays in Sacramento either. I visited the Capitol building there recently. I think the renovations were done very well. But it will need to be expanded with the same sensitivity if it is going to become our Nation's capital.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Stev0 @ Jan 14 2007, 03:04 PM) [snapback]375543[/snapback]</div>

A school district in San Francisco went bankrupt and was taken over by the state.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(danoday @ Jan 14 2007, 03:00 PM) [snapback]375542[/snapback]</div>

Aha!. See? I want my 12¢ back. No more subsidies to Florida and New Mexico! (Florida probably uses it for advertising *their* oranges in competition with us.)

I can see the conversion rates for the U.S. dollar and EcoDollar now: US$1.00 = E$0.88. We'd use both E$1 and E$5 coins and eliminate the penny. (coins last longer than paper.) The mint would be in San Francisco. Oh, it already is. We'd be willing to continue to produce U.S. state quarter and silver proof sets for export...for a small extra fee of course. After all, the U.S. outsources everything else, why not the production of it's collector's proof sets?

We'll have both Apple Inc. and Microsoft.

I'm sure we'd allow United States citizens to enter using just an ID rather than a passport, as long as it was only for tourism. Sorta like they do in Europe. We'd offer the same consideration to Canadians and Mexicans. While I can't speak for President Schwarzenegger or Vice President Brown, I'm sure accommodations would be made. After all, we are a pretty liberal lot, even our Republicans.

All hail the United Western State of Ecotopia: Where the air is clean, the women are tanned and the cars are electric. (Yep, we'll have them before anyone.)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DaveinOlyWA @ Jan 14 2007, 11:12 AM) [snapback]375485[/snapback]</div>

Yeah, but Alaska will be smart enough to wait until Bush is out of office. Could be their incentive is when the voters get stupid and forgetful enough to vote another Republican into office. I anticipate Alaska will secede right before the oath of office.

And what excuse would he use to prevent CA,OR and WA from seceding? We have weapons of mass destruction? Or...we have no functional democracy? California terrorists are attacking Florida oranges in an effort to disrupt the economy and cause an artificial shortage, thus raising the price of juice?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DaveinOlyWA @ Jan 14 2007, 11:12 AM) [snapback]375485[/snapback]</div>

Well, for you U.S. guys, yeah. You'll be in another country. The entire nation of Ecotopia, on the other hand, will be completely WiFi.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(danoday @ Jan 14 2007, 12:00 PM) [snapback]375542[/snapback]</div>

Thanks Dan for the figures, even if they are not up to date the principal remains the same and most Californians have heard of this imbalance before. I searched extensively last night and again this morning to back up such a premise. The info is not readily available, or at least my ability to search was impaired. Another imbalance is that we are aware that CA receives more illegal aliens from south of the border than any other state, for which we must pay higher state income tax, and higher sales taxes than other states with income taxes to pay for their health care, uninsured motorist accidents, federally mandated state welfare, and a whole slew of other 'benefits'. Indeed, right wing fools may dismiss CA as good riddance, but we support THEM and they would suffer financially if these imbalances were rectified.

While I believe this topic was started as an intellectual exercise, It would benefit Californians tremendously if it were to come to fruition, at the cost of the rest of the nation. We have the economy, talent, industries, and political system to sustain such a break, so the unlearned should research before they spew their foolishness.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MarinJohn @ Jan 14 2007, 06:19 PM) [snapback]375656[/snapback]</div>

Of course, you'd have to deal with a new illegal alien problem... all those Arizonans, Nevadans, and Oregonians sneaking across the California border to better their lives!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MarinJohn @ Jan 14 2007, 06:19 PM) [snapback]375656[/snapback]</div>

Amen, though the wingnuts will never see it that way.



FYI, this article was recently on MSNBC (I think we could hold our own against the likes of Spain and Canada):
"California economy really isn't 6th largest
State’s economy drops to 8th-largest in world, despite conventional wisdom
The Associated Press
Updated: 4:21 p.m. PT Jan 12, 2007

SACRAMENTO - How great is California? Well, if it broke off from the United States and became its own country, it would be the “sixth-largest economy” in the world, as the oft-repeated phrase goes.

The description has become ubiquitous, championed so often by politicians and reporters that it has become boilerplate for describing the state’s buoyant economy. Most recently, Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger used it in his state of the state address to make a case for comparing California to ancient Greece — a modern-day “nation-state.”

“California has the ideas of Athens and the power of Sparta,” Schwarzenegger said during Tuesday’s address. “As you know, California, if a nation, would be the sixth-largest economy in the world.”

If only it were true.

California’s economy no longer ranks No. 6, but rather is the eighth-largest economy in the world.

The state, with about 37 million residents, ranks behind the United States, Japan, Germany, China, the United Kingdom, France and Italy, according to U.S. Commerce Department and World Bank figures. Spain and Canada complete the top 10.

No California official has bothered to correct the figure’s public use. Schwarzenegger, it turns out, has never even governed the sixth-largest economy.

The state ranked seventh when he was elected during the 2003 recall election, having just slipped behind France and Italy in gross domestic product, according to the World Bank and California finance officials, who annually rank the state’s economy based on figures provided by the Commerce Department.

California last ranked sixth in 1999.


URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16600877/"

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(seeh2o @ Jan 14 2007, 09:38 PM) [snapback]375665[/snapback]</div>

I think it's really hard to rank California with the other top ten nations since this number fluctuates from year to year. Here is how one blogger tried to figure it out:

"In 2001, California was responsible for 13.4% of the US GDP; the closest runners-up were New York at 8.2% and Texas at 7.5%. It comes out to 1.3 TRILLION dollars. Just from California. I’ve always heard that CA is the 7th largest economy in the world, so I decided to try to find out if that is true. Unfortunately, I couldn’t find any concise data on the rankings of the GDPs of the world’s nations. However, there are many tables devoted to the wealth of nations per capita. So I took the 2001 GSP of CA and divided by the 2000 population (there was no 2001 data) and I came up with a startling figure. Now, I know there is a difference in the way GDP and GSP are calculated, involving military expenditures, etc., but I think this works for illustration. Per capita, from the 2000 and 2001 figures, CA comes in at about $39,000. Using the 2002 world figures, that puts us 3rd in GDP per capita, and AHEAD of the United States as a whole (which would then be 5th, with CA inserted). There’s also that tiny little issue of TAXES. I believe the figure is: CA gets $0.75 back for every dollar it pays to the Feds in taxes. So we’re supporting the rest of the country, despite the fact that those dollars are desperately needed here."

Secession Baby!

I say put it to a vote:

Mr. Poll on California Secession

Most of us want to go. Most of them want us gone.

If this poll is any indication of the current political climate, I say let's go while the getting is good. Nancy will be really disappointed in losing her position, but if offered a chance to be the first Vice President of the United Western States of Ecotopia, I think she can be persuaded.

 

Yeppers, this is where I want to retire... :blink: :huh: :lol:

I think they WOULD be better off as Ecotopia. B)

 

That was then. Get some current news. We have a balanced budget and will be out of the "red" a lot earlier than we planned for.Schwarzenegger may be a Republican but in fiscal matters he's not an idiot.
Not out of the woods, but no longer burning the forest.
Contra Costa Times
"Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger proposes a $103 billion budget that he says will wipe out the deficit he inherited.

The lowdown: Good news for all! Well, except for state college students, who will have their tuition raised. Oh, and some welfare families, who will have their benefits cut off."

And don't forget, the current California fiscal mess is a result of the looting of California by Ken Lay and Bush's other Enron buddies in 2000-2001. An artificial "energy crisis" that was planned and carried out with no repercussions. California is still out the BILLIONS of dollars that was stolen because Bush didn't choose to do anything about a state that didn't vote for him.

Yeah, 2001 is a great year to quote, isn't it?

"In 2001, Dubya refused to intervene in the electricity “shortage,†probably because it was manufactured by a close friend of his. It took him days to declare the 2003 firestorms in SoCal a disaster area, when he declares Florida a disaster area whenever there is a burp in the weather. There have been reports that FEMA has a history of overpaying in Florida. When a levy broke up here in the delta last June, it took a MONTH for the feds to decide it was a disaster area, and even then they restricted it so that the federal money only helps the state with clean-up and no low-cost loans are available to the farmers who lost millions of dollars in crops, houses, and equipment. The crop was so new at the time, that the farmers had not even insured it yet. That levy broke in June, it is now December and they are still pumping water out. So, even before the election, Dubya has had a policy of ignoring California."

"For blue staters, it's one thing to watch red states pick the President and set national policy on everything from Iraq to judges. But to pay them lavishly for the pleasure suggests that blues aren't just losers, they're stupid losers. You can feel blue anger rising. You reds don't like taxes? Okay, stop taking mine! You can have your states' rights too--and we'll start by cutting your allowance!"

"John Sperling, shows that a fiscal map looks awfully like an electoral map. (Lest you think this is all just liberal bias, the right-leaning Tax Foundation supplies similar data.) Between 1991 and 2001, "winner" states got nearly $1 trillion more in federal benefits than they paid in taxes. Alabama won the biggest, raking in $100 billion. Losers California, New York, and Illinois each paid $250 billion or so more than they got back. The huge gaps are driven by higher average incomes in the "donor" states, plus subsidies for farms, oil, mining--"extractive" industries that skew red. There are exceptions (Texas is a loser, Pennsylvania a winner), but the map on this page shows the big picture. The heist is more impressive considering that the winners have only a third of the U.S. population."

This is a Red land, paid by a Blue land.

Time to get off the Blue State gravy train.

Let my people go.

 

I tried to google the state by state breakdown for each deficits but have yet to find a list. <_<

Democrat Davis sounds like he was a spender, and Rep Schwarzenegger is traveling the correct path.

I used the old figures for a reason, kinda a what was to what is scenerio.

Im really starting to see a trend though, seems every thread turns about face to blame BUSH instead of whom ever is really to blame for what didn't get fixed or spent to much. (Democrat/Republican/Independent/Government leaders)look to your senators that are still driving the SUVs you know the ones that do/did the same thing every politician does to get into office "LIE" for your votes... :mellow:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusguy04 @ Jan 14 2007, 11:12 PM) [snapback]375700[/snapback]</div>

Well, our troubles really began with Gov. Pete Wilson...who was then sent to... Washinton, D. C.

Davis was painted a lot blacker than he was. He inherited crap that Wilson left. The legislature is responsible for some of the spending he's been blamed for. He was pressured to sign the energy contracts and then blamed for signing them. Unfortunately he got blamed for some things that were not in his control. But....if you can't control some things you shouldn't be governor.

As for Bush... I don't think he's being blamed enough for things he is responsible for. Like why Enron wasn't prosecuted, why California wasn't compensated, why the disparity in disaster relief, etc. When you are the president you are supposed to be the president of the entire nation, not just those who voted for you. And he actually made a statement to the effect that since California didn't vote for him he wasn't going to do anything for California. And he hasn't.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(seeh2o @ Jan 14 2007, 06:38 PM) [snapback]375665[/snapback]</div>

For crying out loud, aren't we forgetting something major? California's largest cash crop is not even considered in these numbers. MARIJUANA is said to be somewhere between a 4-10 Billion dollar annual crop. All untaxed! add tax to the billions and you have billions plus just waiting to be plucked, er, used for the common good.

So what if the CA economy is the 5,6,7,8 or 9th largest in the world with or without all crops taken into account. There's still so much money here that we are a net donor to the rest of the country, (world really as evidenced by the huge drain sent by 'guest' workers to their homelands) and eliminating those drains would go far toward financing ecotopia. Furthermore, once ecotopia is established, this is the home of the 'shop locally' movement, so pride in our new homeland would contribute even more to keeping the bucks at home. Not everyone shops to save a nickel, there is such a thing as hometown pride.

We're rich, we're liberal and we're tan! (New state motto)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MarinJohn @ Jan 15 2007, 12:30 AM) [snapback]375731[/snapback]</div>

[attachmentid=6246]

I'm not sure we need to legalize cannabis for general sales to make money. Medical uses alone will be quite profitable. Think of the money we'll make exporting Apple and Microsoft products. And Movies and TV shows on DVD.

We will have to negotiate for water unless Nevada can find a way to divert the Colorado river...or Arizona comes with us. I've heard that the western parts of Montana may wish to secede as well if Idaho comes.

Anyone have any thoughts about Wyoming, Colorado or Utah? The more the merrier.

 

Pacific-Rim-O-Rama would then own the entire Pacific Ocean by right of eminent domain. From now on sunsets would be copyrighted and fees and taxes for any image of a sunset (or palm tree) would go directly to the treasury.

Hmm. Sunset Tax. Palm tree tax. We might be able to enact a surfboard tax per wave ridden.

Developers are thrilled with the amount of coastline now available and will be building luxury condo timeshares along both sides of the Baja peninsula.

I've eaten in the Railroad McDonald's in Bakersfield and seen the Thermometer.