California To Secede From U.S.A.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Jan 14 2007, 06:49 PM) [snapback]375668[/snapback]</div>

And here we might have a problem…persuading Kalifornians to vote
:lol:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(danoday @ Jan 14 2007, 12:00 PM) [snapback]375542[/snapback]</div>

Are you implyng that californians are getting stonned?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Jan 14 2007, 08:58 PM) [snapback]375723[/snapback]</div>

In typical liberal fanaticism fashion . . . you got your facts backwards. [damn the truth when a point can be made!]

Pete Wilson was first a mayor of San Diego, then a US Senator for eight years, THEN Governor.

After leaving politics he started a career in banking, teaching and corporate advisory here in California.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pete_Wilson

 

Would it be possible to speed up the process if the rest of the states took a quick vote to kick California out of the union?

just wondering... whatever is fastest.

First order of business after that is to not allow anyone who has in the past been a celebrity to leave california into the remaining united states. And, keep your stinkin movies and TV shows too.

Turn off the electricity and water flowing from the US into California and from there, we're set.

Good riddens...

:lol:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Jan 16 2007, 08:58 AM) [snapback]376207[/snapback]</div>

There is a good to global warming an rising sea levels :lol:
Also, NoKo with nukes and missiles that could reach CA - just joke here. Maybe just cover the "pro-America portion of the West Coast with ABM's - another joke here.
Just like some think FDR let Pearl Harbor get hit - maybe consider the same for CA - another joke here.
Truth is the terrorists would not do that and potentially lose their biggest support base in the US - joking again.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sufferin' Prius Envy @ Jan 16 2007, 05:40 AM) [snapback]376177[/snapback]</div>

You're half right.

I got my facts backwards. We got rid of him in San Diego by sending him to D.C. where he could do little harm.

But as Governor he was responsible for the mess Davis inherited.

Typical NeoCon rebuttal to misdirect the actual point.

 

Back to the coffers...Naturally, we'd have a small 'visitors' tax unless one came from a red state wherein they'd have to first pass rigid left-wing questioning and those who passed (no faking it here) would have to donate their first-born to the left-wing cause, with chips implanted under their skin, but they would forever be considered 'tainted' and not allowed to reside here, only visit and return to the red where they would be a 'bad' influence.

The only defense department we'd need would be against neocons like Fred Phelps trying to enter with their megaphones, since we wouldn't be an aggressive war-mongering country and there would be such a convenient target for such-minded foreign powers right next door.

The Governator's initiative on stem cell research would lead to cloning and we could get John Lennon back to add to our (unfinished) national anthem:

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(danoday @ Jan 14 2007, 09:04 AM) [snapback]375491[/snapback]</div>

"The Last Chase" was great B class futuristic sci-fi, early 80's just over the 70's hump which had the best post-apocalyptic sci-fi (Logan's Run, Omega Man...).

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0082642/

It wasn't that cars were outlawed it was the Internal Combustion Cars were outlawed EVERYWHERE BUT THE FREE REPUBLIC OF CALIFORNIA!!!!! How's that for irony?

It was the story of Franklyn Hart (Six-Million Dollar Man Lee Majors) and ex-race car driver attempting to regain the freedoms that the fascist environmental government had imposed. I believe the actions were also spurned on by the recent death of the characters wife.

A pretty good movie none the less.

Also this thread reminds me a lot of a book I read called "The Cat who could walk through walls" by Robert Heinlein (Starship Troopers) where in one chapter the "Angelinos" were attacking near a farm house somewhere in the mid-west. (the details of why weren't important and not discussed)

Any whoo...

Be careful what you wish for. I IMHO if California were to succeed, the succession would quickly be followed by a three party civil war. This state is too divided to rule itself and without the balancing force of an overwhelming Federal Government the Right and the Left will tear at each other. You will get a whole new North v. South. The third-party of course being Mexican (Azatlanians) seeing the weakness as a time to start a Basque separatists style revolution to take back California. Which of course was never "theirs" to begin with as Azatlan never existed and most, if not all, of the "Mexicans" that claim this land was theirs originate from tribes far south of the border.

All in all a fun thread!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MarinJohn @ Jan 16 2007, 12:58 PM) [snapback]376326[/snapback]</div>

What would your national language be :lol:
Pesos or $'s?

 

sounds like a good idea to me.....

maybe NJ should be next! :lol:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Devil's Advocate @ Jan 16 2007, 10:25 AM) [snapback]376348[/snapback]</div>

Interesting take, but I don't think there would be an immediate civil war within the borders of California itself. In fact, the civil war would probably be in the border states, as factions look seriously at joining the new Ecotopia. Many Nevadans (especially those in the Reno/Lake Tahoe area) tend to identify more with the ecological concerns we normally associate with California. Las Vegas also tends to identify with California, because a large part of their income comes from there. You'd probably also see movements in Oregon and Washington pushing to join Ecotopia.

Personally, I think it might play out something like this: California secedes. Western and southern Nevada (Reno/Lake Tahoe and Las Vegas) secede and join the new Ecotopia, along with Washington and Oregon. Nevada works a deal with Ecotopia to close all Indian casinos and remove all tribal claims, leaving Las Vegas and Reno as the only places in Ecotopia with legalized gaming (this provides an immediate and substantial tax base for the new Ecotopia). The northern tip of Idaho splits from the rest of the state, and joins Ecotopia. Utah secedes from the United States, annexes the both the lower part of Idaho and the leftover parts of Nevada (which, due to Utah's secession, the federal government can no longer easily directly control), and creates the nation of Deseret. Deseret moves quickly to annex parts of southwestern Wyoming... something the U.S. federal government is completely unprepared for (having used all it's military power to invade Iraq and Iran, and reeling from the losses of the use of the former western states national guard. While Ecotopia maintains cordial relations with the United States federal government, Deseret does not, and enjoys the popular support of many of the countries that the United States has recently pissed off. Deseret has the distinction of being quickly recognized as a independent nation by more countries than Ecotopia is recognized, although both are accepted as independent nations by the U.N. almost immediately. As well, because of the rumblings of war between the U.S. and Deseret, there is a popular movement in Ecotopia to ban the U.S. Navy from their bases of operation in San Diego and the bay area. President Schwarzeneger places restrictions on operations conducted from those bases, and those restrictions become more severe. China, smelling blood in the water, gives financial support to Deseret. In China's view, a new nation between the U.S. and Ecotopia will further reduce the U.S. federal government's worldwide power. In a surprise (and with the promised military and financial support of the Chinese government), Hawai'i secedes from the United States, leaving the U.S. navy without access to a major Pacific base of operations. The first Hawai'an embassy opens in Sacramento, followed by one in Beijing. Ties between Hawai'i and Ecotopia strengthen, as Ecotopia courts Hawai'i to join the new nation. Ecotopia also begins negotiations with the Mexican government to purchase Baja California.

Back on the Deseret front, the U.S. federalists now face an unpopular civil war. Northeastern states begin to pull their already over-extended national guard troops back from the front lines, leaving the western border protected by a quickly dwindling number of regular army troops. Vermont and New Hampshire begin to discuss secession; while industrial stalwart Michigan discusses joining Canada. Although the southern states heavily support the U.S. federalists, the northern states are beginning to waiver. The federal government pulls back from western Colorado, Montana, and Wyoming, and takes up new positions on the eastern side of the Rocky Mountain range. Deseret has already been gaining popular support west of the Rockies, with it's promises of local autonomy and a more liberatarian attitude toward governence outside of the capital of Salt Lake City.

The civil war, while not over, cools down almost completely. While Deseret does not officially open diplomatic relations with the United States, they do maintain a representative in Washington, as Washington does in Salt Lake City. Trade between the two nations is brisk, though often unofficial. Ecotopia becomes a powerhouse economy, and surpasses the U.S. GDP. They also lead the world in technology development, medical research and education. While initially using the U.S. dollar as currency, the state switched to the Pacific Dollar just prior to the beginning of the U.S. war with Deseret. In retrospect, this was brilliant timing, as China removed currency controls soon after this, leaving the U.S. dollar to freefall, and causing severe economic impact across the eastern portion of the U.S. The Pacific Dollar has been adopted by many other nations, notably Hawai'i, the Phillipines (which is enjoying an economic revival due to it's position as the 'new' India), and most former U.S. Pacific possessions. After seeing the success of the Euro, Australia and New Zealand are considering adopting the Pacific Dollar. Deseret, somewhat surprisingly, mints it's own currency; both that and the U.S. dollar are commonly used there. Deseret's economy is not large, and the nation is not exactly prosperous, but isn't depressed either.

Hey, it's fiction, but still kind of fun to speculate. Anyone have a different vision?

Dan

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(danoday @ Jan 16 2007, 11:58 AM) [snapback]376400[/snapback]</div>

Great starting point but where's the part where neocons eat their young, since we all know the older generation of neocons is more important and selfish than any modern people? Back a few pages someone mentioned water as an issue, but I see massive middle-eastern-like desal plants where excess water is sold to deseret at huge profit. You can say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. Back to our story...I have held for years that just as the Soviet Union became too large and unmanageable, the US will find itself in similar situation someday and will split into regions. Another 8 years of coup de'etat george and it will happen in my lifetime.

 

I say, since Cali is starting to make noise they will succeed, even though there's no PROOF, I say we take pro-active measures, invade, drive all the leftist scumbags into the ocean, or better yet, put them in labor camps, forcing them to either make Republican propaganda pieces until they die of exhaustion, process their organs for donations across the country, and use their fat to make low cost soap for the poor, all the while being guarded by black or hispanic gangbangers from LA.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Jan 16 2007, 03:49 PM) [snapback]376458[/snapback]</div>

Wait a minute... is this the same guy who was (just a few minutes ago!) saying proactive measures in Iraq (ie starting the war) were a good thing?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Jan 16 2007, 03:41 PM) [snapback]376451[/snapback]</div>

yup, it sure is! First he tells us PROOF doesn't matter in Iraq, then he comes here and tells us that PROOF is all that matters in Cali...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MarinJohn @ Jan 16 2007, 01:47 PM) [snapback]376456[/snapback]</div>

In my scenario, Deseret never develops an economy that can be gouged to the point of being sold water at a huge profit. Keep in mind that the lumber in the Pacific Northwest by and large belongs to Ecotopia. Besides cattle and mining, Deseret doesn't have much to offer the outside world. I imagine they'd derive some income by taxing goods passing through Deseret by truck or train. Since Ecotopia would have a lock on shipping ports on the west coast, most merchandise would have to enter the continent through there, and then cross Deseret to get to the U.S. itself. Combine that with a terrorist scenario that closed the Panama canal, and you've got some real possibilities.

The really interesting key points to the scenario are China's involvement in the destabilization of the U.S. federalist economy (by allowing the dollar to float unsupported by the Yuen), the lack of military power in the U.S. due to extended operations in Iraq and Iran, and the loss of national guard support from northern and northeastern states (which serve at the discretion of the state governor). You could combine that with a Republican president that sees the loss of west coast blue states as sure sign of Republican domination in the near future, and neo-con calls to eliminate the Deseret separatist 'terrorists'. I think this (plus the resultant severe hit on the economy) would cause many in the U.S. to lose faith in the federal government, and would probably work to replace it with something more moderate. Facing a groundswell of opposition from the northern states, the government would probably back off the rhetoric and stand down.

Have to admit, the Soviet Union was in mind when writing the scenario. One could easily see something similar happen here.

Dan

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eagle33199 @ Jan 17 2007, 12:43 PM) [snapback]376998[/snapback]</div>

Since this is an intellectual exercise, wouldn't it better to play along by either negating another poster's ideas by presenting your own, or pointing out how to rectify their flaws with your ideas, instead of just poo pooing one another?

For example, in your first 'argument' perhaps a solution may be to consider a couple as one unit till last to die, or else perhaps recommend they have adequate insurance for such contingencies, or...?

In your example of the company perhaps his wife chooses to run it or sell it (perhaps to the employees), certainly I am not proposing the gov't own the company.

You state in my (perhaps poor) example there would be a stiffling of creativity, but I don't get that point. New blood, new control, new ideas.

Since I am not yet supreme benevolant dictator, I don't have all the answers.

You bring up the Hitler dictum by naming socialism. Doesn't thrill me, doesn't scare me.

I was well aware of the typical response to my thoughts (and if I felt like it I could have made my post much longer by trying to head off at the pass the usual responses) when I posted, but gave my compadres on PC more credit than to just turn off the whole discussion with their canned answers. It's exactly that kind of 'obstructionalism' without (creativity) or creating other scenarios that stifles creativity, and is a large part of what's wrong with our present political system. No one has all the answers, but we can move forward by working together instead of protecting our little piece of turf. After all, we're just talking here, not setting policy into law.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Marlin @ Jan 17 2007, 02:43 PM) [snapback]376965[/snapback]</div>

Ummm. Isn't Florida getting more back in Federal taxes than it gives? That would be sucking right?

Florida pays no personal income tax.
California does.

What's the state sales tax in Florida? 6%, California is over 8%. I guess because Florida get's back $1.02 and California gets back $0.79.

Any state that gets back more than 100% of it's Fed. income tax should have a mandatory personal state income tax. Those that get back less should have either the state income tax or sales tax lowered.

State Income Tax comparison

What's the median income?

Median Income by state.

Now, California looks pretty good at $51,000 compared to other states. Not so fast. Consider cost of living. First, we pay more for gas except for Hawaii. Next...cost of living. Of the top ten most expensive cities to live in in the U.S., the majority are in California. Compare the median cost of a house. You have to have $500,000 or more to buy a modest home in most major California cities. Not so in other states. If you make $51,000 in San Diego, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Oakland, Santa Clara, Santa Cruz, you can't buy a home. You won't qualify for a loan. To buy a median priced home in those cities you'd have to make over $100,000 and have a 20% down payment in cash.

Median price of homes by state

Cost of Living "temperature" map.
Notice how red California is? But we don't win. We're only 48. Washington D. C. and Hawaii have a higher cost of living. Looks like quite a few of the blue states are also states that have a higher cost of living. So...why are we still donors?

 

Now that the Oranges, Lemons and Advacado's have frozen, let's offload Cali before we have to fork over 20 billion dollars to cover their 1 billion dollar crop loss.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Jan 17 2007, 05:24 AM) [snapback]376707[/snapback]</div>

Small price to pay! Steal of a Deal!! We'll 'make' that back in one month by no longer being a 'donor' state to the once-great USA.