Calling a spade a spade

Discussion in 'Prime Main Forum (2017-Current)' started by Marine Ray, Sep 1, 2020.

  1. mistermojorizin

    mistermojorizin Active Member

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    Thanks for answering. I don't think anyone's arguing against basic maintenance. The question is if doing maintenance twice as often is prudent, especially when the engine doesn't even turn the wheels a quarter or more of those miles.

    With the second thing, I don't think we're talking about performance handling or anything like that. Just after say 70mph, many of them tend to have steering wonder and their hard(er) to keep straight, which isn't something I saw on my 2006 Scion or my 2010 Scion, or my 2015 Hyundai sonata (I'm comparing to other non-performance, bad performance handling cars). I've also owned quite a few Lexi which handle like a couch but are still not wandering at high speeds.

    By the way, on the issue of performance handling, just my opinion but the prime actually handles reasonably compared to my bmw 135i, g35 coupe, and corvette. But I don't want to get into that whole discussion. The prime isn't for performance clearly.
     
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  2. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    you would have to understand the chemistry of oil, as it sits in the sump over time
     
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  3. RealCCN

    RealCCN Junior Member

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    I'll give you another idea, Drive another Prius with similar options and year. Does it drive the same? Comparing your Prius to another car might not be an accurate comparison. You'd want to establish if this is a normal characteristic of the car or not. My diagnosis process starts with verifying and verifying if there's a problem or its normal is first. Now if another similar Prius doesn't drive the same then I'd like to ask you a few questions. What kind of tires, Tire pressures and mileage do you have? Also do you ever notice that your steering turning effort is different from one side to another even slightly? and last but not least did you have an alignment inspection done recently? If so could you share the print out so we can see how the alignment is set? Simple tweaks to your toe could actually make a huge difference at highway stability without compromising with tire wear.

    Regarding the oil changes. There's a lot more to oil than just following the manufacturer's recommendation. With the introduction of plug in hybrids things are going to get interesting on the dealership side. Engines are meant to run not to sit. Doesn't matter how high tech the car is and how the EV technology has evolved and how efficient they are. Gasoline engines are gasoline engines. and because of the "new" technologies like oil controlled variable valve timing mechanisms and low tension piston rings and essentially non serviceable engine blocks You are simply pushing the mechanical limits of these engines by either not running them often enough or not changing the oil more often. My brother, I love you and respect you and I don't want to argue with you at all. Do what seems logical to you, But if you ask me professionally about this I will tell you this. If you are planning to keep your car for a long time ( And by long time I mean 5-15+ years) I would highly encourage you to reconsider the 10K oil changes or worse in the case of the Prius Prime the 1 year. It's totally up to you.
     
  4. mistermojorizin

    mistermojorizin Active Member

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    do you mean that it should be based on time, in addition to Miles? I'm asking if I need to do 4x a year (10,000 miles) as the manual says or 8x a year (5,000 miles) as the video says. In the manual there's also a minimum time, no?

    Thanks for replying again. Yes I've driven a couple before buying (same). Noticed the high speed instability right away.

    edited to add: i have utmost respect for you as someone that i can tell has a ton of experience. not trying to come off as combative, I just like to discuss this stuff and if it really makes sense for me to switch to oilchanges 8x a year i would.
     
    #44 mistermojorizin, Sep 6, 2020
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2020
  5. RealCCN

    RealCCN Junior Member

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    My recommendation is to replace the oil every 5000 miles or 6 months regardless and whichever comes first. Plan to keep the car less than 5 years then don't waste your money inventing in a future of a car you won't benefit from.
    OK Let's do this. Let's start with the free things first. What are the details of your Prius?(Year and I'm guessing prime) Also what brand tires and mileage do you have?
     
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  6. mistermojorizin

    mistermojorizin Active Member

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    Stock Ecopia tires, 2019 Prime Advanced
     
  7. RealCCN

    RealCCN Junior Member

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    OK Thank you. You're either out of the alignment warranty or still in depending on your date of first use. It's 1 year 12,000 miles. If you're out I would get an alignment inspection. Some dealerships will do this for free and give you a print out. Some will charge a small fee. We can perhaps tweak the alignment slightly keeping within spec to see if it gets better. Another thing is do you own any other Toyotas?
     
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  8. mistermojorizin

    mistermojorizin Active Member

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    I had the dealership adjust it within the 1200 miles period. But they would only "we'll do it within spec." I also have since purchased an alignment warranty with firestone. I used to have a 2010 camry, i've driven my granpa's 2016 camry. and as i mentioned i've had two scions and my parents both own lexus and i've had a couple.
     
  9. RealCCN

    RealCCN Junior Member

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    Any chance you have the alignment print out so I can take a peek?
     
  10. mistermojorizin

    mistermojorizin Active Member

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    I messaged you with it. really appreciate you takin a look
     
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  11. royrose

    royrose Senior Member

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    I've had the oil and filter of my 11 year old 2010 Prius changed at 10,000 miles or, more recently because of less driving, yearly. It still runs like new.

    I bought into the idea that synthetic oil is worth the extra cost because it lubricates better and takes longer to break down, thus allowing a longer interval between changes.

    Not trying to be a wise a** (much) but when can I expect disaster and what can I expect to happen?

    Seriously, I expect to trade it in a year or so because I now drive 3,000 to 4,000 miles per year so I think a non hybrid/EV makes more sense for me and someone else would get more use our of my Prius and, by using it more, keep it healthy longer.
     
    #51 royrose, Sep 6, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2020
  12. AldoON

    AldoON Junior Member

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    Interesting point in the video about high mileage tires. My mileage dropped by around 15% when I got new high mileage tires put on.

    Even though I hate that my mileage dropped, I'm still thinking the high mileage tires were the best way to go for me. They were a lot less expensive, last longer and have better braking performance in bad weather. Overall the high mileage tires are safer and need replacement less often which is more convenient.

    Factor in that a large portion of my driving I get for free charging at work and from a money point of view, the gas/electricity savings don't come even close to making up the higher cost of the eco tires.

    My question for @RealCCN is:
    Beyond the drop in efficiency, are there any other detrimental effects of high mileage tires on the Prime?

    Also, welcome to the forum and thanks for your posts. Clearly you're very well informed!
     
    #52 AldoON, Sep 6, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2020
  13. vvillovv

    vvillovv Senior Member

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    Out of however many here use dealer service, than double check work actually done (not necessarily OCD checking either), are happy with how the service dept handles the maint. schedule on their car?

    For reference My wheels were rotated first time at 30k service. I replace the OEM tires at 35k.
    I do alot of my own maint on the 3 ponies in the stall here and have topped off tranny fluid changes a couple times in the older cars. Never really done a full tranny fluid drain and replace, except in the ole 72 Charger.
    I have seen some ugly lookin plug magnets though. Nothing to write mom about, but ugly non the less. And was happy after I'd put on the new crush washer and refilled/topped off the fluid. It's not too much more involved than an oil change anyway.
    Big question though, after a tranny fluid change, where do you take your used tranny fluid?

    I've got two 4by lug wrenches, one smallish and one normal sized. My go to ATM is the smaller one and that also fits the primes lugs. When I changes out the wheels to break those lugs loose I had to align the 4by and kick it a few times. When the lugs let loose there was an audible cracking - scretching sound. Than I had to kick the tires a few times, than wiggle back and forth both sideways and top to bottom about a minute each before the wheels let loose of the hubs. In My Opinion, Not something one wants to have to do when the car is jacked on the OEM jack. As Always ymmv....

    edit @AldoON
    I put defenders on mine, got the same hit on electric mpge but not really noticable hit on mpg - since I don't drive HV too often anyway, except the last month of so. My last harmony's were 80k lifetime and lasted almost 100k. I have high hopes for my defenders and nordsman in the winter. And don't pay all that much attention to the preceved hits they offer. The Ecopia's and the Toyo's that came with the 14 PiP and PP respectively never reached 40k. Quite a difference both in handling and miles. Again, in my opnion.
     
    #53 vvillovv, Sep 6, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2020
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  14. Washingtonian

    Washingtonian Active Member

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    I have one concern about the health of my engine. Nine times out of ten I can complete my errands on the 30 EV miles or so that I start out with. But sometimes the ICE will come on about a mile or half a mile from home. I wonder if that engine is designed to start up and run for two or three minutes and then shut down and not start again for a week or two. I am thinking that might be a valid reason to change the oil once a year even though the engine has run for maybe only a thousand miles.
     
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  15. Marine Ray

    Marine Ray Senior Member

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    Good question and concern. I'm pretty certain that the PP engine is NOT designed to start up and run for two or three minutes and then shut down and not start again for a week or two (unless something triggers it ex.defogger)

    However, the PP will run until it gets to operating temperature if say you turn on your defogger. The engine will not just turn on for a few seconds, then turn off before reaching operating temperature. Reference some of John's videos on YouTube.

    That said, I've decided to follow the owner's manual on oil changes - 10kmiles or 12 months, whichever comes first - regardless if the PP engine never came on or was on 100% of the time. If the PP engine never came on then I probably need a full EV.
     
    #55 Marine Ray, Sep 7, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2020
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  16. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    I think so too: to suddenly double the oil change interval seems reckless.

    Gen 3 in Canada, Toyota set the regular oil change interval at 8k km (5k miles) or 6 months (whichever comes first). Gen 4 they adopted the longer US intervals. Pretty much the same engine.

    That said, with the plug ins, the longer interval might be warranted.
     
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  17. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    If they have expressed preferences touching on stuff that you directly say, I wonder if they really don't care about apophasis...
     
  18. RealCCN

    RealCCN Junior Member

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    I'm very pleased and happy that your 2010 Prius is doing great with the 10K oil changes! Actually the 2010-2011 Prius are the biggest offenders when it comes to the oil interval.

    Let me explain exactly what happens and what I've seen over and over. So as the 10K oil changes continue so does the gradual sludge build up and grime build up. most Toyota engines around 2007 and up started adapting low tension piston rings. These rings have lower tension on the cylinder wall and rely more heavily on oil pressure to expand and create a good seal. In the ring land on the piston there are small holes that feed oil to the rings. With time and that extended oil change they slowly start to clog and then the first victim is the oil control ring. Now the oil consumption starts lightly lets call this stage 1. Then after more time when most of the holes are sealed now oil starts not flowing as well in one or more rings. Eventually the little oil flowing starts cooking on the rings from the heat of the combustion this is stage 2 if you would. Stage 3 which is when disasters happen is when one or more piston rings seize up and end up scratching the cylinder wall. At this point your oil consumption is extreme and even random misfires are possible and this engine for technical terms is non repairable. Per Toyota you cannot hone the cylinder walls on low tension spring engines. So essentially to fix the issue at this later stage you'd need a new short block. At stage 1-2 a simple oil cleaning solution could actually help resolve the issue and bring the consumption back to spec. However at stage 3 nothing will fix the scratches on the cylinder wall. Seen this a lot. Sometimes we're doing other engine work like a head gasket repair and I see the deep scratches on the cylinder wall, pull a piston out and the rings are seized solid.


    Beyond the drop in efficiency nothing else is affected at all. And I love your analogy on pros and cons! Sometimes people are too hung up on one thing that they forget to see the benefits of other options! Someone had mentioned on a comment on the video that low rolling resistance tires are terrible otherwise and to a degree I agree however that is not my decision or his. It all goes back to the individual's taste and needs in a car. As long as the owner is informed and have all the facts then whatever decision they make will be the good one to suit their needs. Thank you for your welcome! I appreciate it!

    Like I mentioned I cannot just come out and say. But do look at what changes happened to new Toyota car sales right around 2009-2010 and after you've got that look at what was the first Toyota to get the 10K 0W20 full synthetic oil change....That'll give you an idea who decided this change.
     
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  19. Marine Ray

    Marine Ray Senior Member

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    Thank you for your insightful and valuable feedback. The time, effort, and patience you've put into your feedback is refreshing and appreciated.
     
  20. royrose

    royrose Senior Member

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    Thanks so much for your thorough explanation. Since I now do less than 5,000 miles per year and with my having done 10,000 mile changes up until now, would you recommend going to oil changes every 6 months? What product do you think would help open up the passages and prolong the life of the engine? I do indeed have some oil consumption, about a quart every 4 to 5,000 miles, so i do think I am in stage 1.
     
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