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Can a person choose to believe in god?

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by daniel, Jan 26, 2007.

  1. fshagan

    fshagan Senior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hyo silver @ Jan 28 2007, 10:13 AM) [snapback]381968[/snapback]</div>
    The person making the compliment evidently missed this post right before it:

    Perhaps you think guilt by association and printing slander is an example of being level-headed. I don't demonize others to feel superior, I don't export misery, offer hell, or consider myself as adopting a "sick, barbaric ideology". I have already clarified my belief on torture, and given a source from an esteemed legal scholar (and liberal).

    I can only think that our moderator was typing his message as the misrepresentation of my views was also being typed. I don't consider that response in any way "level headed" and an example of good debate. Or, the moderator could have just considered that normal speech, and not offensive in any way, because he agrees with it. I have no way of knowing, and it doesn't matter.

    Because Daniel asked some important questions I want to answer, but I don't want to be lost in this very long post, I'll come back for a response to him (for some reason, PC joins the messages we type into a long one ... anyone know how to prevent that?)
     
  2. TJandGENESIS

    TJandGENESIS Are We Having Fun Yet?

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusguy04 @ Jan 28 2007, 11:55 PM) [snapback]382122[/snapback]</div>
    You were meant to do what you were meant to do.

    If you are meant to die on Monday, you will. You can't predict when death comes a knocking.



    Jesus Himself did not know all. So one could say, that God does not know all, since Jesus is God.

    And if God does not know all, then it's a mystery to Him as much as to us.

    However...there is one train of thought that says the duality of not knowing, and knowing, is what makes God, well, God.

    Frankly, as far as I am concerned, we can pray. We can not. We can tithe, we can not. It matters not which way you lean. If it was meant to be, it was meant to be.

    Nice people die everyday, while evil people live on. Does this mean God is a heartless bastard, who wants the people who are nice, yet starving, to continue to suffer? Or is it perhaps a lesson we are meant to get. As in, why do we let the starving people in Africa starve?

    Is it that they have not heard (the late) Sam Kinison? Who yelled, 'You live in a desert! Go to where the food is!'

    Maybe we are suppose to learn to help one another, to stop being such selfish bastards ourselves, and to live in peace and harmony with what we are given? It's a lesson that seems to me, that we ignore at our own peril. We have heard it said, 'The flap of a butterfly's wing in Africa is the Hurricane off the coast of Florida.'

    If this is true, then the suffering of a child in Africa is being felt here.

    God is real as far as I can tell. But for those who elect to not believe, then tell me this: What's the big deal in at least trying to live out His basic credo of being good to one another; to love one another.

    I firmly believe that if we all, the entire planet, could just grasp this simple tenet, we would all have utopia.

    Alas, I fear that it's beyond our grasp, our ability, to just do that; to be nice.

    I choose to believe in God, because there is much I don't know about the universe, and how it got here. I choose to believe that man mucks things up, so I don't believe in religion.

    Confused? Don't blame ya. But each and every day, as I slowly march towards the death that waits for all of us, the confusion for me is less and less. Not saying it's gone...but less.
     
  3. huskers

    huskers Senior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Jan 29 2007, 01:16 AM) [snapback]382186[/snapback]</div>
    There is nothing wrong with what you are saying here. The problem comes when you decide to fly a plane into a building, carry a dirty bomb into a city, impose your beliefs on all of us (politics/laws), protest/disrupt military funerals, and bomb abortion clinics (just to mention a few). This world is now far to dangerous with are weapons technology to have people who think it should all be over. Only religion can produce that kind of strange thinking. :eek:
     
  4. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Jan 29 2007, 12:16 AM) [snapback]382186[/snapback]</div>
    Hmmm, sounds predeterministic to me. I don't believe in that.

    I don't think anyone thinks there's anything wrong with that. If anything it's religion telling us that that isn't enough and that doing good, being moral, helping others, seeking peace, etc. is not good enough and that we can't be as good as those who belive in God whether they're truely good/moral/etc. themselves.

    Sure, the problem is the "all" part...there are and always will be bad people or people who aren't necessarily bad but who believe that they are right and others are wrong. The world isn't black and white so such a simplisted thought is doomed to failure.

    Ironicly that's part of why I choose not to believe in God. So many times I've been told that there are things we don't understand so there must be God to fill those gaps in our scientific understanding of things around us. But upon reflection of history many previous religions were based upon just such reasoning then ultimately the religion failed or was forced to change when their beliefs were explained by or disproven by science. So, I feel it's important that, should I ever accept God or any other religion that it not be because of a lack of proof of something, but rather because of a preponderence of evidence proving the existance of that God or religion itself.

    No, I'm not confused in the least. I have some wonder and some curiosity. I'll even admit to a slight degree of anxiety that I might be wrong. But I won't go against my true beliefs to give into that anxiety. There'll be no deathbed conversion by me b/c of fear that unless I pretend to believe in a God I don't know will result in my going to hell.
     
  5. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Jan 28 2007, 10:16 PM) [snapback]382186[/snapback]</div>
    I think the reason it's so dangerous to drive in Mexico is that so many Mexicans believe the above, and therefore drive like maniacs, believing that nothing they can do will lead to their death or the deaths of others, since the day of everyone's death is fixed in advance. People who believe the above should never, on any account, be allowed to drive a car.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Jan 28 2007, 10:16 PM) [snapback]382186[/snapback]</div>
    This is an example of drawing firm dogmatic conclusions from dogmatic suppositions. The Bible never affirms the dogma of the trinity, and in fact early Christians argued a great deal over it, as well as the nature of Jesus: whether he was fully man, fully god, or both god and man. The trinitarians won out. But you are skating on thin ice when you then use the doctrine of the trinity to extrapolate the question of whether god has preordained the future.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Jan 28 2007, 10:16 PM) [snapback]382186[/snapback]</div>
    You seem to be arguing for free will in one breath, and for predestination in the next.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Jan 28 2007, 10:16 PM) [snapback]382186[/snapback]</div>
    An excellent philosophy. Except that, as an atheist, I would substitute the words "supposed to" with the word "should," since the former assumes a law-giver, and the latter is merely a statement of opinion.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Jan 28 2007, 10:16 PM) [snapback]382186[/snapback]</div>
    Again, I agree except for the supposition that the idea comes from a god. The "golden rule" is a universal concept, and the world would be a much better place if we all followed it. But why do you direct this question to "those who elect not to believe"?

    First of all, I assert that belief is not something we choose. It is brainwashed into most children. It is a thought process. I would love to believe in a nice-guy god who will make everything right in the end. But I cannot believe in the absense of any shred of evidence.

    Second, plenty of atheists live by the principle of being nice to people, and plenty of Christians do not. Nobody has a monopoly on being nice, and nobody has a monopoly on being nasty. But when you suggest that being nice to people is an exclusively Christian concept you alienate people who are not Christian.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Jan 28 2007, 10:16 PM) [snapback]382186[/snapback]</div>
    Not confused at all. I know plenty of people who believe in god but not in religion. Both god and religion are human inventions. But they are very different inventions, and it's very understandable that you might believe in one without the other.

    On the other hand, I thought you had identified yourself as a preacher, and this misled me into thinking that you were ordained in some particular church. I now gather that you are an unaffiliated lay preacher. Perhaps a street-corner soapbox preacher? Or merely a chat-board preacher? I applaud you for your very humanist religion (or philosophy). If Christians adopted your view of Christianity (i.e. being nice to people rather than killing people to save their souls) the world would most definitely be a much better place.



    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Jan 28 2007, 09:32 PM) [snapback]382175[/snapback]</div>
    Sometimes it does. Sometimes it does not. I'ver never been able to figure out its criteria.
     
  6. Mystery Squid

    Mystery Squid Junior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Jan 29 2007, 12:27 PM) [snapback]382254[/snapback]</div>
    Proof?
     
  7. Alric

    Alric New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Jan 29 2007, 11:31 AM) [snapback]382261[/snapback]</div>
    The other way around. There is no evidence for God's existence, ergo, God's existence is highly unlikely.
     
  8. hycamguy07

    hycamguy07 New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Alric @ Jan 29 2007, 10:43 AM) [snapback]382263[/snapback]</div>
    Yeah we want PROOF theres no God!??
     
  9. hycamguy07

    hycamguy07 New Member

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    My view on this matter is Yes a person can choose to believe in God! :)

    However if you do not believe in the same God that I do. I really don't care & Im not going to attempt to cram my beliefs down your throat.... <_<

    I guess the same could be said of my view on Homosexuality, a person can choose to be Homosexual. However don't try to cram it down my throat if I dont believe/agree that you are born that way, but rather you have made a life choice that most people just tolerate. ;)
     
  10. Alric

    Alric New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusguy04 @ Jan 29 2007, 12:27 PM) [snapback]382282[/snapback]</div>
    That's the problem. You are assuming a God. Starting without assumptions you have to attempt to proof there is a god first before examining evidence to the contrary hypothesis.
     
  11. Schmika

    Schmika New Member

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    TJ is correct in that it is very confusing. However, faith itself relieves the confusion. Here are some thoughts. This is coming from a born again christian belonging to an independent fundementalist evangelical baptist church.

    Faith is a personal relationship with God through Jesus. I do not need to go through any hierarchy (a' la' Catholic) and no man has the right to judge me, only God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.

    God has known throughout eternity who would choose to believe so man must go out to spread the gospel so that those who will believe, will hear the word to believe. There is a christian song by Greg Long called "Fifteen". It is basically about witnessing, it can take fifteen times to hear about Jesus before one might believe, so we must always be ready to talk about Jesus because while we might be number 3 or 7 or 9, we MIGHT be 15.

    NOTHING in God's word makes any sense to an unbeliever. It is only upon being filled with the Holy Spirit upon acceptance of the faith that your eyes are opened to the truth. (Many self claimed saved believers are neither)

    God did not put evil into the world, man did. God's sole purpose is that all should believe and return to him (but he knows many will not)

    Any proof of God's existence would negate that very existence because faith, by its very definition, requires that there can be no proof. If there was proof, there would be no need for faith.

    All of the before described "theories" (Calvin, et. al) are created by man, therefore they are flawed and cannot possibly be reconciled to the ultimate truth.

    So, bottom line, these are SOME of my beliefs, with all the rights and responsibilities of any adult's beliefs. I have said before, HOW does my beliefs interfere with anyone here. Beliefs influence decisions but I am still ultimately responsible for those as well.

    And to the ignorant person that said I believe in torture, I will repeat, it is obvious we define torture differently. Remember, I still find it tortuous that I have to keep imaginging Godiva sitting on a horse naked ....ahhhhhhh!!!! (someone said we should accept ANYONE's definition of torture)
     
  12. TJandGENESIS

    TJandGENESIS Are We Having Fun Yet?

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Jan 29 2007, 12:27 PM) [snapback]382254[/snapback]</div>
    No, I am an ordained Preacher. I just do not have one church. I help out at a number of churches. I am what you might call a substitute. I have worked with The Miami Vineyard, Bird Road Baptist, The Church Of Hollywood, A Spanish Baptist Church, New Life, Assembly of God, Agape...many churches.




    And many times, I have been asked to start my own, but I don't feel the need to. Why start one when I can help out others? And I do it for free, so the argument that I am getting rich from this, well, that ain't happening with me.


    I have a real world degree; from an accredited institution, not some Internet site. However, they are rather stuffy, and I don't want to drag their good name down with mine. I tend to ruffle many church leaders with my liberal take on Christ and His ways. For one, I don't hate homosexuals. Another, I don't buy into tithing, since it's an Old Testament creed, that is misused to gather funds for churches.

    Again, if one want to tithe, do so. But it's not any more required then slaughtering a lamb to atone for sins is anymore. Jesus came, and created a New Testament, a New Contract, and thus the Old Contract is over ridden.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Jan 29 2007, 12:27 PM) [snapback]382254[/snapback]</div>
    Well, I really have the believe that I can't change things. In other words, I can turn right, I can turn left, but if I get hit by the bus, I get hit by the bus. I can have all the free will in all the world, but no amount of free will is going to stop that bus from hitting me, if it's meant to hit me.
    I am not in charge of when I randomly die. What I do up until my death is of my own will. But death is the one thing that no one can predict, nor force one's free will on, unless you commit suicide. That, that is taking your free will to the extreme, wouldn't you say?

    I was not brainwashed as a child. I was like you, an atheist type of person, who choose to think that way. Nor was I brainwashed as an adult. To say that I, or anyone else you don't have intimate knowledge of, was brainwashed, is rather condescending. Frankly, and Danial, this is where I do put up a fight, it bugs me that one can not seem to make up one's mind, in your view, to follow Christ on one's own. That to do so, must require a brainwashing. Many great scientists, past and present, believe in God, in Christ. Are they too, brainwashed?


    Well, I believe I don't know how the world got here. Or the universe. SOMETHING, had to start it. We did not just get farted into existence. Although, that would explain the stinky nature of things...

    Where I often get into trouble, is I think that the Bible was written by man. Inspired by God, yes, but written by man. And man tends to mess things up to a degree. So, when one just lives by the Bible, without independent thinking, or research, I think that brings up problems. Problems like the inquisition.
    Well, I di not mean to suggest that. Sorry if it came out that way.


    Being nice is something everyone should do. And it's true, there will be evil people doing evil things; it seems to be a never ending cycle. More is the pity.

    All I am saying, is give peace a chance. Wait, John Lennon said that. But I am saying it to. And if someday, we are to break the cycle of war, and hatred, it has to start somewhere. Even if you don't buy Christ as God, it's hard to deny He was a Man of Peace, who taught about peace. Following His basic message, seems not like such a hard thing to do.

    You mentioned free will. Well, it takes free will to be nice. You can choose to be evil. Or you can choose to be nice.

    But either way, you have made a choice. And in my case, it is the choice that involves having the free will to believe in Christ, who I believe brought that message of hope. It brings me a sense of freedom. And that, that my friend, makes my life that much easier.
     
  13. keydiver

    keydiver New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Jan 26 2007, 09:16 PM) [snapback]381467[/snapback]</div>
    The Bible has always made it clear that we are beings created with free will, and can decide for ourselves whether to serve God or not:
    "I do take the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you today, that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the malediction; and you must choose life in order that you may keep alive, you and your offspring, by loving Jehovah your God, by listening to his voice and by sticking to him." Deuteronomy 30:19, 20.

    If God had predestined who was going to live or die, why would he make constant entreaties for us to listen to him, and get life:
    "Turn back, please, every one from his bad way and from the badness of your dealings . . . that I may not cause calamity to you." (Jeremiah 25:5, 6) This appeal would be pointless if God had already fixed each individual’s destiny.
    "Repent, therefore, and turn around so as to get your sins blotted out, that seasons of refreshing may come from the person of Jehovah." (Acts 3:19) Why would God ask people to repent and turn around if he knew beforehand that they could do absolutely nothing to change their destiny?
    The Bible also makes it clear that we can lose this privelege:
    " Do not be afraid of the things you are about to suffer. Look! The Devil will keep on throwing some of YOU into prison that YOU may be fully put to the test, and that YOU may have tribulation ten days. Prove yourself faithful even to death, and I will give you the crown of life." (Rev. 2:10)
    " For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left,  but [there is] a certain fearful expectation of judgment." (Heb. 10:26)
    So, where did all these ideas of predestination come from? Undoubtedly from the influence of Greek philosophy, which formed the basis of many other church doctrines ( another discussion).
    "Predestination is linked with the idea that God must have a detailed plan for the universe wherein everything is predetermined. "It has seemed to many philosophers," writes Roy Weatherford, “that anything less than a complete specification of every event would be incompatible with God's Majesty." Does God really need to specify every event in advance?"

    The fact that everlasting life is a gift God offers to ALL men is evident from the oft-quoted John 3:16:
    "For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. For God sent forth his Son into the world, not for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him."
    "At this Peter opened his mouth and said: For a certainty I perceive that God is not partial, but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him." (Acts 10:34,35)

    But, your friend evidently forgets the lesson God taught with the Flood. Although God is long-suffering, we should not confuse that with "all-loving", or on the other end of the spectrum "uncaring". One of the central themes of the Bible is that there IS going to be a day of accounting, when God's patience has run out.
    I know Daniel that you are well aware of the fact that I do NOT agree with the unchristian teaching of hellfire as a form of punishment, but that doesn't mean I don't believe God is going to destroy the wicked:
    "And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more;
    And you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be.
     But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
    And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.
    But as for the offspring of the wicked ones, they will indeed be cut off.
    The righteous themselves will possess the earth,
    And they will reside forever upon it.
    But the transgressors themselves will certainly be annihilated together;
    The future of wicked people will indeed be cut off." (Psalms 37:10,28,29,38)
    "Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it." (Matthew 7:13,14)
    "The upright are the ones that will reside in the earth, and the blameless are the ones that will be left over in it. As regards the wicked, they will be cut off from the very earth; and as for the treacherous, they will be torn away from it." (Proverbs 2:21, 22)

    As to the other question, as to whether faith by itself is sufficient, I offer Jesus' own words:
    " He that exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life; he that disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him." (John 3:36) EXERCISING our faith indicates ACTION.
    "My Father is glorified in this, that you keep bearing much fruit and prove yourselves my disciples." (John 15:8) How do we "bear fruit" without any works?
    The Bible writer James backed this up when he said: "Faith, if it does not have works, is dead in itself." (James 2:17)
    "Become doers of the word, and not hearers only." (James 1:22)
    The fact that God values our good works is brought out by Paul:"God is not unrighteous so as to forget your work and the love you showed for his name, in that you have ministered to the holy ones and continue ministering." (Hebrews 6:10)
    Yes, everlasting life is a free GIFT that we receive from God, based on faith in Jesus' ransom sacrifice, but if we truly have faith our faith will PRODUCE fine works, so we will show our faith through works. Our obedience simply demonstrates that our faith is genuine:
    "Therefore produce fruits that befit repentance" (Luke 3:8)
    "Let your light shine before men, that they may see your fine works and give glory to your Father who is in the heavens." (Matt 5:16)
    "You behold that [Abraham’s] faith worked along with his works and by his works his faith was perfected." (JAMES 2:22)


    All quotes above are from the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures (NWT)
     
  14. EricGo

    EricGo New Member

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    Torture, christian style ala fshagan and schmika:

    fshagan likes the 'never can be too hypocritical' approach, by saying he is against it, but in actions supporting it's use. Sorry, but the actions matter, not the tongue wagging.

    schmika prefers good old fashioned BS, stating torture is subjective, and surely not a matter for the victim to decide.


    As others have pointed out, a part of humanity is debased sewage. I just cannot but be surprised when they proclaim their innocence, let alone have the opinion of occupying the moral high ground.
     
  15. keydiver

    keydiver New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Jan 29 2007, 01:13 PM) [snapback]382342[/snapback]</div>
    Why is it commonly asserted that "faith", in any spiritual context, is defined as "belief in something with no proof"? Although that is ONE of the dictionary's 13 definitions, how about "1. confidence or trust in a person or thing "???
    The Bible's own definition is much better:
    "Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld.†(Heb 11:1)
    The Greek word e′leg‧khos, rendered “evident demonstration,†conveys the idea of bringing forth evidence that demonstrates something, particularly something contrary to what appears to be the case. Thereby this evidence makes clear what has not been discerned before and so refutes what has only appeared to be the case. “The evident demonstration,†or evidence for conviction, is so positive or powerful that faith is said to be it.
    Faith is, therefore, the basis for hope and the evidence for conviction concerning unseen realities. The entire body of truths delivered by Jesus Christ and his inspired disciples constitutes the true Christian “faith.â€

    My "faith" in the Bible is based on evidence and facts, including:
    1) the huge mass of evidence that whatever/whoever/wherever the Bible has ever mentioned has been otherwise testified to in other secular writings or through recent archeological finds. For centuries many people or cities the Bible spoke of were denounced by "Bible scholars" as never having existed, but, in time, the Bible has been vindicated time after time.
    2) The Bible has proven itself to be a reliable book of prophecy. The things it foretold came true in such detail as to prove that God was the true source of the prophecies. This includes events that I see even now unfolding, in fulfillment of Bible prophecy.
    3) The good results of applying the Bible's advice on family life, morality, and in general how to lead a happy life have all proved personally beneficial, which proves to me that a truly caring Creator wants me to benefit myself by following his "instruction manual". I've seen the powerful effect for good of the Bible, how it can completely transform people's lives for good.
    4) The fact that, although penned by dozens of individuals, it has a central theme, God's Kingdom, by which he will correct all wrongs. From Genesis to Revelation the Bible shows how God has been working out his purpose to establish that Kingdom.
    What many are actually proposing as "faith" is "credulity":
    "willingness to believe or trust too readily, esp. without proper or adequate evidence; gullibility."
     
  16. huskers

    huskers Senior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(keydiver @ Jan 29 2007, 03:49 PM) [snapback]382408[/snapback]</div>
    You forgot to mention Noah flood. I'm sure that Noah got two of every aminal on board and floated around for a year or so. What happened to the plant life and how did he get american buffalo on board? Stories passed down over time can seem real (as well as places and cities). Like stats...you can make the bible look and say whatever you want it to. Remember all those who say the world is coming to an end. Next day we are still here. Lets see some real proof...not some old book of contradictions.
     
  17. hycamguy07

    hycamguy07 New Member

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  18. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(keydiver @ Jan 29 2007, 12:08 PM) [snapback]382390[/snapback]</div>
    I would dearly love to listen to a discussion on this point between you and a Calvinist. (Based on what you have written of your views, I'd be on your side; but I'd still like to hear the debate, as the Calvinist presented his arguments.) I find the Calvinist view incomprehensible, but they certainly believe in it most fanatically.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(keydiver @ Jan 29 2007, 12:08 PM) [snapback]382390[/snapback]</div>
    The dogma that god is all-love is a common one, though definitely not universal. I suppose my friend came to it through her Quaker roots. Though she is a professing Catholic, her beliefs are all very thoroughly Quaker. And if one must insist on a tyranical creator-being holding court over the world, the Quaker version is far less damaging to the fabric of society than the more common versions.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(keydiver @ Jan 29 2007, 12:08 PM) [snapback]382390[/snapback]</div>
    You are a difficult one to argue with, because you reject most of the irrational dogmas of mainstream Christianity. Do I remember correctly that you are a Jehova's Witness? I've always like the JWs, though I think their insistence that the end of the world is at hand is a bit off the wall.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Jan 29 2007, 11:14 AM) [snapback]382376[/snapback]</div>
    Does this mean it's okay to drive a car drunk out of your skull, because nothing you can do will prevent the accident that kills the child in the other car?

    While we cannot determine the future, our actions can help or hurt other people, directly or indirectly.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Jan 29 2007, 11:14 AM) [snapback]382376[/snapback]</div>
    The asstetion that "something had to start [the universe]" is often made as an argument for god. But it is a meaningless statement, which amount to saying "If I don't know how much is 493735274 times 998315349573 then the answer must be 7. There is no grounds for asserting that the universe had to have a creator.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Jan 29 2007, 11:14 AM) [snapback]382376[/snapback]</div>
    Yes, I can imagine that would get you into trouble preaching in fundamentalist churches. :D
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Jan 29 2007, 10:13 AM) [snapback]382342[/snapback]</div>
    I think this is precisely the root of the Calvinist dogma of predestination. If god knows who will believe, then it's been settled before we were born, and that would be inconsistent with free will.

    But then Calvin goes further, asserting that grace is a gift which cannot be earned, even by the choice to believe, and therefore not only grace, but the faith which is its prerequisite, must be a gift, outside the power of the individual to earn or obtain.

    Obviously, I find this view offensive. Your view, that anyone can choose to believe is better; and the universalist view is better yet. The only thing better than that would be to abandon religion entirely, and the walls it erects between peoples and nations.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Jan 29 2007, 10:13 AM) [snapback]382342[/snapback]</div>
    In other words, religion is all nonsense, and it is only by accepting nonsense can one come to embrace religion.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Jan 29 2007, 10:13 AM) [snapback]382342[/snapback]</div>
    All religion was created by man. The Bible was written by man. Your religion, while less irrational than the Calvinist religion, is still more irrational than, for example, Keydiver's religion, as his does not make a torturer of god.
     
  19. Alric

    Alric New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(keydiver @ Jan 29 2007, 04:49 PM) [snapback]382408[/snapback]</div>

    None of this is true. However, #3 had me in the floor laughing. Do you practice, incest, rape or bestialism? Would you give your daughters to strangers to appease them. These and other "advice" is present in the bible but is conveniently ignored.

    #4 is also a common misconception. Just consider the differences between the old and new testaments and the change of Jesus from an apocalyptic messiah to hippie.
     
  20. huskers

    huskers Senior Member

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    Another thing I never understood is why those who do not buy into evolution find it hard to see how we could have evolved from other life forms with DNA at work...yet believe the that we were made from dirt or a rib. Maybe we are not ready for the next step in evolution...we may be going backwards!!! :p