Can a person choose to believe in god?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Alric @ Feb 8 2007, 01:38 PM) [snapback]387002[/snapback]</div>

That ranks high as some of the biggest B*S* I have ever heard.

There are disturbed people in ALL groups. If you are an atheist, you make policy and decisions based on that as well. Nothing in the Bible is irrational....point it out if there is (Oh, simply believing it is not true is not allowed, must be something that is harmful. Quotes required...not just interpretation)



ooops...violating my earlier post...sorry! Unregard if you want...Oh, unregard is not a word, just something I do to make people look at me strange.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Feb 8 2007, 12:47 PM) [snapback]387013[/snapback]</div>

Numbers 15 - And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks upon the sabbath day. And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. And they put him in ward, because it had not been declared what should be done to him. And Jehovah said unto Moses, The man shall surely be put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him to death with stones; as Jehovah commanded Moses. And Jehovah spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, and bid them that they make them fringes in the borders of their garments throughout their generations, and that they put upon the fringe of each border a cord of blue.

All of Genesis

Numbers 31 - Moses was enraged with the officers of the army, the commanders of the thousands and commanders of the hundreds, who had come back from this military expedition. He said, "Why have you spared the life of all the women? They were the very ones who, on Balaam's advice, caused the Israelites to be unfaithful to Yahweh in the affair at Peor: hence the plague which struck Yahweh's community. So kill all the male children and kill all the women who have ever slept with a man; but spare the lives of the young girls who have never slept with a man, and keep them for yourselves."

1 Samuel 15 - This is what Yahweh Sabaoth says, "I intend to punish what Amalek did to Israel - laying a trap for him on the way as he was coming up from Egypt. Now, go and crush Amalek; put him under the curse of destruction with all that he possesses. Do not spare him, but kill man and woman, babe and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and donkey."

 

Schmika,

All of the logic that you've used thus far is circular. The Bible is the word of God because it says so in the Bible is circular. Do you believe every advertiser's claims about his products? I'm pretty sure that you don't. How do you know that the Koran isn't the right book? It says it's the word of God too. What about the Book of Mormon? Similar claims here. Who's right? None of these things can be validated independently.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Alric @ Feb 8 2007, 01:55 PM) [snapback]387016[/snapback]</div>

Sorry, not irrational....you just don't like it, and this was Mosaic law, no longer the rule during the "Age of Grace".

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Feb 8 2007, 02:44 PM) [snapback]387046[/snapback]</div>

I don't disagree. I have said before, Faith is defined as belief in things unseen...if there were proof, it would not need faith. So, this is simply what I believe. I argue that it hurts nothing and daily there are proofs of the Bible, i.e. you will be HATED for your belief. I have done nothing to people here who HATE me because of what I believe simply because it is my belief.

Now, people who are "born again" will understand what I am saying, those who are not will simply argue that I am illogical, or irrational, or nuts, or whatever. Fine, just makes me believe all the more.

Good news, y'all can have this peace of mind and faith as well. Just ask!

OH, and how does believing in God prevent me from believing in Science as well. Nothing I believe in has been dis-PROVED by science. Everything against my faith is a THEORY only.

Believing in God and Jesus PROVES to me all those things that science is unsure about.

 

LOL! Your faith is perhaps nothing but a product of evolution. You ought to get one of your leaders to change it around yet again... even the Quran is written much better .

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Feb 9 2007, 09:37 AM) [snapback]387494[/snapback]</div>

Everybody's hated for their belief by someone so that proves nothing. Considering the behavior described in those texts provided by Alric I'd say that there's a good reason that poeple hated the Jews. There are many christains and jews that hate other people for their beliefs so the cycle just repeats itself over and over. It's very sad really. So much death and misery propagated by people who can't agree on what the "true" faith is.

Elaborate on the daily proofs...

So if we're in the 'Age of Grace' as you say and the OT is no longer relevant why is it still part of the bible? Are the 10 commandments no longer valid? If the 'Golden Rule' is the rule why can't God abide by it? He's not following his own rules, if that's true. That is, to me, the biggest contradiction in the book.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Feb 9 2007, 12:37 PM) [snapback]387494[/snapback]</div>

Just to pick two: the earth was not created in 6 days. Animals, including humans, were not created de novo out of nothing, all living things evolved from a common ancestor through billions of years of evolution.

Ah. And the flood as is described in the bible never happened.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Feb 9 2007, 12:37 PM) [snapback]387494[/snapback]</div>

I think its irrational to kill a man for picking up sticks in the wood. Don't you? What rational thought process can lead to death from picking up sticks?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Alric @ Feb 9 2007, 02:15 PM) [snapback]387599[/snapback]</div>

There is that thing about sticks and stones. Also, if you run with a stick you could poke your eye out.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Feb 8 2007, 02:44 PM) [snapback]387046[/snapback]</div>

...and here's where everyone chokes.

It's interesting to me, how people attempt to use THEIR logic to "prove" some sort of "faith". Let's use this argument: God, if he exists, does not exist within your set parameters of what we might consider logic and proof. It's like you're ignorning, the very real possibility, there is something, someone, some entity, whatever, that perhaps enjoys a far different set of "rules" other than A+B=C.

Just because it doesn't fit in your cup doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Believe what you like, a truly open mind acknowledges our reality may very well not be the only one out there...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Feb 9 2007, 03:34 PM) [snapback]387619[/snapback]</div>

But you are making the irrational jump of:

"I don't know or can know B"

to

"I don't know or can know B, and therefore it must be God"

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Alric @ Feb 9 2007, 04:43 PM) [snapback]387624[/snapback]</div>

No, YOU are the one making that jump. I'm not saying, "Therefore it MUST be God" (as that in itself ties you into OUR system of logic), what I'm saying is more amongst the lines of, a possibility of other than what we know or are even able to define and comprehend. Or to put it another way, lab rats cannot comprehend "human" logic, is it reasonable to believe we might be the lab rats in this case? Just because humans, arguably, are the most intelligent creatures on Earth, does not necessarily mean we are the most intelligent entity in the universe... We presume we are in the absence of anything to the contrary in our sphere of logic, but it's still OUR sphere of logic.....

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Feb 9 2007, 03:57 PM) [snapback]387635[/snapback]</div>

I would rather wait until there is any indication that there is anything beyond our "sphere of logic" to start worrying about it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Feb 9 2007, 12:34 PM) [snapback]387619[/snapback]</div>

No, you're not understanding what I'm saying. I'm saying that statements like "The Bible is the truth because it says it is" are rubbish and useless for establishing anything. The onus is not on me to prove anything. Proponents of the Bible are making claims based on the circular logic of the bible. It's their logic that's being criticized. I've made no specific claims about the nature of God. I certainly don't rule out the possibility that there's some sort of God out there but I have no concept of what it might be. I'm also certain that humans are very limited in their perception of the universe and agree with your sphere of logic idea. It's Christians who make the claim that humans are the apex of the mortal being hierarchy, not me. I find that view to be incredibly arrogant and pathetic, really. It's a pretty sad comment on the nature of things if we're the best of the best.

I'm not an atheist, I'm a staunch agnostic. Atheism is a form of faith. I rather don't like faith. And I'm not hedging my bets just in case. Based on what I've seen I've come to the conclusion that all of the gods devised by man don't exist. I'm not able to measure the existence of a god, so I don't know if there's a god out there and I don't know the nature of this god, but my inclination is to observe the world around me for clues. Mostly just a way for me to develop my own philosophy really.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Feb 9 2007, 05:58 PM) [snapback]387698[/snapback]</div>

I disagree. Atheism follows the evidence. Anything is possible but you certainly don't believe in everything. There are degrees of possibility. Based on the fact there is ZERO evidence for the existence of god, and most of what we know of the natural world makes his existence very highly unlikely the evidence so far points to the non-existence of god.

 

Are you talking about the christian god or just the idea of a god? I'm talking about the latter. There's faith in science... Uniformatarianism is the basis of science. I think it's a reasonable assumption, much more reasonable than other assumptions, but still an assumption.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Feb 9 2007, 08:34 PM) [snapback]387782[/snapback]</div>

Any god that you can talk to.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Feb 9 2007, 11:35 AM) [snapback]387621[/snapback]</div>

Of course. I am predisposed to believe in God; I always have believed, even before I knew which God I believed in. If you're looking for someone to prove God's existence to you, I'm not the guy. I don't think it is possible for me to prove God exists, any more than it is possible for you to prove a negative (i.e., that He does not exist).

The only thing I can do is try to communicate my views on certain issues, and how they fit into my theology (which is not a finished work, and if I'm lucky, will never be finished.)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Feb 9 2007, 11:35 AM) [snapback]387621[/snapback]</div>

Perhaps. I can understand your thinking here. But there's an important concept I've tried to explain before, and I'm failing at doing it. Everything, good and bad, is God's fault; He either creates it, endorses it, or allows it to happen. He could have stopped the planes from crashing into the WTC, or my cousin from dying from cancer. So He's responsible for those things in a de-facto sort of way.

I'll have to take a look at the "burn in hell" theology a bit to see if I can really support it from a scriptural standpoint. There really isn't much in the Jewish tradition that supports it, and not much in scripture. There is a lot in Christian tradition, and I hold tradition in high enough esteem that I don't reject it out of hand. There is a certain inconsistency with our modern understanding of God, but my discomfort with breaking from tradition on that basis is simply that inconvenient things are often true, so my feelings about a matter are not the final arbitrator when forming my theology.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Feb 9 2007, 11:35 AM) [snapback]387621[/snapback]</div>

No ... because I believe one thing is true, does not mean I believe the opposite is true. In other words, the idea that God will take care of vengence, freeing me to forgive, does not obligate God to perform to my expectations. It is enough for me to know that I don't have to take care of it. What happens beyond the veil is God's business.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Feb 9 2007, 11:35 AM) [snapback]387621[/snapback]</div>

Ah, wasn't aware there were rules like that here!


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Feb 9 2007, 11:35 AM) [snapback]387621[/snapback]</div>

Is it fair to say that your view is that man creates the god he desires, more out of his own needs than the evidence at hand?

 

agreed.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Feb 9 2007, 10:01 PM) [snapback]387875[/snapback]</div>

I would say you just nailed it on the head, but that's just me. There are many similarities between the many religions of the world. The devil's in the details (sorry, couldn't resist) and that's what get's everyones dander up. My biggest complaint is that people spend so much time, energy, blood, and misery bickering and fighting over details of this process or that. If people would simply say "I have a moral obligation to reduce and minimize the suffering in the world." we'd be much better off than we are now. Has it really ever been important what day of the week someone works on (in the case of the guy in Numbers)? I mean really. In fact, all of the verses that Alric quoted are great examples of people maximizing suffering. And that's from the Bible. One of the oldest religious texts around.