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Featured Canada wants 20% of Auto Sales to be Zero Emission by 2026

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by drash, Dec 28, 2022.

  1. drash

    drash Senior Member

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    Some interesting data out of this Motor Illustrated article and reveals Canada has a long way to go to meet this target in proposed regulation. Total number of zero emission vehicles were only 5.2% of total car sales in 2021 and including plug-in hybrids were up to 7.2% in the first 6 months of 2022. Most of the blame on the current situation can point to lack of supply, not a lack of willingness, as consumers get frustrated and end up with more polluting options. I would assume a lot of that is also cost related as well, even given the credits available because many of them rely on purchase price limits.

    https://motorillustrated.com/20-of-zero-emission-vehicles-sales-in-canada-by-2026/108356/

    Looks like the Canadian Gov't is ready to enforce this by penalizing the manufacturers.

    You would think, having built over 9 million cars in Toyota Canada's two factories, including such models as the RAV4 Hybrid, Lexus NX Hybrid, Lexus RX 350h, Lexus RX 500h as well as the Lexus RX 450h, that Toyota Canada would be awash in hybrids. Most of those end up down south, especially the Lexus hybrids. Case in point, there are about 10 Lexus hybrids built in Canada at the 4 closest dealers to me in Upstate NY.

    Toyota Canada Releases November Vehicle Sales Results | Toyota Canada

    The preceding article doesn't acknowledge that the new 2023 RX 350h and RX 500h are also built in Canada. Saw the RX 500h for sale and sure enough it was built in Cambridge, Ontario. Oh yeah it already had a sold sticker on it.
     
  2. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    'wanting it' .... versus 'legislating it' .... versus 'law changed just prior to the time it's getting too near to be practical'
    .
     
  3. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    I'm a little concerned about the legislation as we have more winter concerns than the U.S. does. Sure, one of our biggest EV markets is Quebec but Quebec is arguably different than the Prairies.

    I'm guessing they're banking on Ford, GM, Rivian and RAM to come up with work trucks to cover that segment and more choices in minivans and sedans (aside from SUVs and crossovers) for the remaining market.

    Incentives work (for now) as the two biggest markets are B.C. and Quebec with Metro Vancouver having the highest EV sales as a percentage of total vehicle sales. But unless infrastructure catches up (the $500 odd million doesn't even have enough coverage... and it seems some companies are taking advantage of the minimum standard of 50kW... Ideally 100kW or 150kW would help traffic congestion and future proof the stations) and battery temperature management becomes more widespread (no one wants to wait 1 hour in -30°C because the car or station is coldgating at 50kW or less), it'll be hard to achieve those numbers.

    Also, we're billing at a per minute rate across Canada. It's fine in the summer but seems a bit excessive in the winter when you're only getting a third of what's promised in power and you're sitting at the station much longer than needed. Plus, there are some (no names mentioned) stations that are consistently under performing even in the summer with multiple models not able to achieve the station's rated power output.
     
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  4. drash

    drash Senior Member

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    Hmmm, sound like a PHEV is a better bet. Run the engine in charge mode to generate more heat while you're driving to your destination then switch over to EV mode about how far away you are. I've done that more than once when getting off the plane after a week or two of traveling in the winter when I had my Prius Prime. Gonna take a hit on mileage anyways because the car is cold, might as well use that inefficiency to get the battery charged up and warm too.
     
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  5. Prashanta

    Prashanta Active Member

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    Learn to walk before running. Get electrified vehicle sales at 20% before attempting that feat with exclusively EVs.
     
  6. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    The Canadian proposal includes bevs, phevs, and fuel cells. I doubt fuel cells will work for more than 0.1% of the Canadian population ;-) but phevs definiely can. PHEVs get less than a full credit as a bev, but 20% is only a difficult number because auto companies and dealerships will have artificially high prices to take advantage of the mandate/subsidy.
     
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  7. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    PHEV with a minimum 50 mi EV range works for me.

    My former BMW i3-REx worked great.

    Bob Wilson
     
  8. Prashanta

    Prashanta Active Member

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    PHEVs with much smaller range works for other people. For many, 50 miles is way overkill. There is nothing special about the 50 mile threshold. If such a threshold was to be proposed, it should be based on a statistic... For example, a PHEV should be subsidized if it allows 50% of commuters to commute on electricity alone.
     
  9. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    I can see a lot of PHEV sales, and owners that never plug them in. For various reasons, ranging from “just don’t care”, through various “only have street parking”, to condo owners with assigned underground parking but facing onerous charger outlet install fees and ongoing monthly “subscription fees”.
     
    #9 Mendel Leisk, Jan 1, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2023
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  10. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Actually, there is. 37 miles fulfills average daily driving need. Taking into account cabin-heating demands during winter months (worse time of year for traffic & emissions), you're covered by that capacity. Having the gas-engine rarely ever run, even under those most demanding circumstances, is how we silence even the most staunch naysayers. You have that gas-engine as a backup, rendering BEV arguments moot, while at the same time confirming electric alone viable for every type of owner... 100% of commuters.
     
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  11. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    Geez John, some people have hangovers this morning…
     
  12. Prashanta

    Prashanta Active Member

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    One reason people are not be plugging in their PHEVs is that gas is way too cheap (considering its impact on the planet). Carbon tax should actually reflect the damage something does to the planet and this problem will take care of itself. And of course, corporate-owned PHEVs often don't get plugged in because the employees can claim gas expense but cannot produce a receipt for their electricity usage.
     
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  13. Prashanta

    Prashanta Active Member

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    People are overly concerned about the engine never coming on while the battery is charged. I find is strange. The engine SHOULD unlock full power of the vehicle if it's wanted by the driver. If my PHEV's engine fired up twice per day while I merge onto the highway, it wouldn't bother me. My commute would be 98% electric instead of 100%. At that point, we're splitting hairs.
     
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  14. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    That's unless the car is Escape PHEV. It has exactly "37 miles" of EPA-rated EV range, but unfortunately, it lacks the efficient heat pump or the stricter EV mode use programming. The car will start the engine any time the battery has been cold-soaked below freezing. We've had the car just 1 month now. Albeit most of the trips taken in the last 500 miles or so on the odometer were less than 37 miles per trip with a full battery capacity. I have already used a half tank of gasoline. My previous Prius Prime did much better in keeping the car in 100% EV mode in the cold morning down to 14F or colder.

    Not all PHEVs will perform equally well under your assumption.
     
    #14 Salamander_King, Jan 1, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2023
  15. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    The assumption is that a mandate will have strict criteria, raising the bar as a minimum for all PHEV. We have seen that with ZEV requirements and tax-credit proposals already. A few years from now when those decisions will be made, people will be better educated.

    For me, I have been taken aback by how poorly informed people have been about winter's impact. There is has been such an obsession with driving-range and charging-speed that the most obvious attribute of EV operation... efficiency... has been seriously overlooked... to the point of neglect. Just squeezing in more battery to compensate for efficiency shortcoming isn't a real solution. When it comes to how battery-packs are thermally managed in below freezing temperatures and heat-pump effectiveness threshold, you would think by now discussions were commonplace. Instead, many are seeing those topics for the first time.

    It really puts technology awareness into perspective. PHEV are far from dead and Toyota isn't really behind as they have been portrayed. This is basically just the next stage beginning, where industry has proven technology but no good implementation plan yet... hence a consideration of government mandates.
     
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  16. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    That's a great example. We'll see an attitude change. Remember years back, the introduction of phone-apps as a means of keeping tabs on the status of your vehicle? As time progressed, new features have been added. Now, there are digital keys and remote parking. It's not too far-fetched to imagine mandates being accounted for by tracking vehicle operation. Credits will be earned by actual real-world usage, rather than just vehicle sales.

    Having that data will help with concerns too, like gas use. A well informed owner won't fill the tank completely. The car could tell them what minimum is required to cover an upcoming duration. It's like being able to see your travel history. Much can be learned by looking back at a one's own timeline. Notice how range-anxiety can be addressed in the same manner.
     
    #16 john1701a, Jan 2, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2023
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  17. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I can only offer personal experience:
    • +10 mi work commute each way - shorter distances were bike, bus, or walking range. But +20 miles is a daily marathon and requires powered transportation.
    • 2x daily work range needed for shopping and quality of life - the extra EV range also supports what we work for such as food and entertainment.
    My choice of 50 mi minimum comes from my 72 mi EV range BMW i3-REx experience. It was not uncommon to park with 5-20 mi spare EV range before overnight charging.

    The 25 mi EV range of our Prius Prime with a 20 mi daily work, round trip, commute was a big fail. The Prime ICE continued to clock miles several days each week and burn gas. In contrast, the BMW would run the ICE for 15 min every 60 days if we didn’t go out of town.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #17 bwilson4web, Jan 2, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2023
  18. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    Can't they just cap 2026 retail petro fuel sales to 80% of 2022s? People will figure it out.
     
  19. John321

    John321 Senior Member

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    Having a PHEV that has the ICE run to supply heat in the winter gives me a different take on ICE running.

    When our PHEV engine turns on I see it as a way of extending the all electric range of the PHEV. Battery electric energy is not wasted on driving a heat pump or on electric heat. The ICE runs at idle using almost no gas ( the car is rated 50 mpg) warming the coolant to heat the vehicle and excess energy is used to charge the battery. A win-win situation. the Ice turn off from idle when the coolant is warm and the back on when the coolant temp drops. It uses a miniscule amount of gas and keeps the gas engine exercised in case it is needed. I don't agree with the all or nothing approach to running the ICE in a PHEV. You also use components that are already on the vehicle without complicating things by adding additional expensive components that can fail. A belief that the ICE should never run when electric power is available is a very narrow way of thinking.

    I might add that since the PHEV battery is in the conditioned part of the vehicle ( under the rear seat and under the luggage false floor) the heating also eliminates much of the range loss due to cold weather that other electric vehicles suffer from.
     
    #19 John321, Jan 2, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2023
  20. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    If I was doing a commute with PHEV think I’d intentionally run hybrid mode one day a week, get the engine fully warmed up.

    FWIW, apart from a few lapses, my work commute over the years was public transit, mostly buses , then a commuter train when it became available.