Capital Punishment?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ Mar 10 2007, 08:30 PM) [snapback]403622[/snapback]</div>

Not all "crimes" are equal. The laws are written to keep the poor from taking back what the rich stole from them. And of course to assure that the ruling elite keeps its political power.

I repeat that it was illegal to help slaves escape before the Civil War in the U.S. and it was illegal in Germany to hide Jews.

A very very few laws benefit society by prohibiting things that should be prohibited. It's also noteworthy that our own Declaration of Independence insists on the right of people to not only disobey the law, but to violently overthrow their government. I oppose all violence, including violent revolution, but our founding document takes the opposite position.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Mar 11 2007, 01:14 AM) [snapback]403677[/snapback]</div>

Ummm, yeah sure you just keep thinking that, oh yeah All poor oppressed people Daniel has an open house policy if you go to his home you can take what ever you like. Its all free..... because hes rich...(Rich = Has more than somone else)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ Mar 10 2007, 11:30 PM) [snapback]403622[/snapback]</div>

That's a pretty simplistic response. Having grown up very poor, I agree with you. However, my personality being what it is and being raised with the parents I have made me turn out the way I am. What if I was raised in a different environment? What if I had different genes? What if I was raised in an area where crime is acceptable, even normal? Would I have turned out the way I am? I don't know the answer to that question, but I'd say that no, I wouldn't have. I may have turned out to be a criminal, or I may have turned out to be a CEO of a Fortune 500 company.

I always ask "What spurs people to commit crimes?" Being raised around an "acceptable" level of criminality and seeing little else would perpetuate that as a way of life. And of course I'm thinking of urban pockets, with areas of little opportunity.

Are there exceptions? Sure.

I have empathy, but I'm also not silly. The biggest reason I've got a problem with our criminal justice system is that it doesn't work with social systems to cut out the catalysts for crime in the first place. Compare the funding it would take for programs for high-risk children (I'm talking starting EARLY...not waiting 'til high school when the damage is already done) to see different possibilities vs. the money we spend imprisoning those same folks who turn (albeit wrongly) to a life of crime.

Of course, I'm only responding to the post with the statistics about Black and White crime levels.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(livelychick @ Mar 11 2007, 06:23 AM) [snapback]403734[/snapback]</div>

My biggest reason for disgust with the criminal "justice" system is that the competence and preparation time of your lawyer is what determines if you go to jail or not. Actual guilt or innocence makes very little difference. Flipping a coin would be more fair, since it would eliminate the economic status of the accused as a factor. As it is now, the real function of the courts is to sort out the rich from the poor so the poor can be sent to prison while the rich are set free.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(livelychick @ Mar 11 2007, 08:23 AM) [snapback]403734[/snapback]</div>

If Im reading you post & question correctly, Good one! B)

Why/what makes a teenager shop lift when they have more than enough cash to pay for what they stole?
Why/what makes a man in his 20's run up to your open garage and take your weed eater & chain saw?
Why/what makes a person car-jack another person for their wheels?
I do not think one can blame poverty or being poor on commiting all crimes......

Most of what I have seen for thefts & burglaries is EASY MONEY why work for it when you can steal it.. Take from the rich and give to poor ME.. Because I do not want to work.. The jobs are out there, burgerking is always hiring.... Most of your career criminals seem to find it easer to steal than to work.. take an outside a/c condencer, theres $100.00 worth of dirty copper in the outside unit. It takes a bad-guy 10mins to strip out the copper from the unit.. Thats $100.00 for 10mins of work.. :huh: How long does it take the average joe to make the same $100.00 working a job?

Is there a Shrink in the House????

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusguy04 @ Mar 11 2007, 08:33 AM) [snapback]403769[/snapback]</div>

What makes a CEO pay his employees one one-thousandth of what he pays himself? And why is that not a "crime," as shoplifting is?

Both actions stem from the same motivation: greed. But because the CEO belongs to the class that owns the government, it's "legal" for him to steal from his employees, but "illegal" for his employees to steal from him.

Why were the Ford executives not charged with first-degree murder when they sent the Pinto to the dealerships, knowing that its defective gas tank would kill some large number of people?

Same answer as before: Laws are written so that it's legal to kill people the way CEOs do it (marketing products they know will kill people, dumping toxic chemicals into the environment, etc.) but illegal to kill people the way poor folks do it.

And when rich folks do actually break the law, more people are killed and more money is stolen by white-collar crime than by street crime, and yet a fraction of the police effort is put into stopping the former, compared to the latter. Poor folks know this, and so they have no respect for the law.

Now, before someone accuses me of believing that it's perfectly all right for poor folks to steal or kill, I do not! I'm just saying that complaining about street crime while ignoring corporate crime is like cashing a check at the bank and counting the pennies while never noticing that the teller shorted you by a fifty-dollar bill.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(livelychick @ Mar 11 2007, 05:23 AM) [snapback]403734[/snapback]</div>

I think there are other sociological reasons than just income level for the difference in crime stats that fall along gender, racial and economic class lines. The rise of crime in the black community happened during a time of a slight increase in their overall income, IIRC. And during the great depression, where unemployment was devastating, crime went down.

While crime because of gender may be biological -- men have testostorone -- I don't think there's any evidence of a "crime gene".

We tend to learn from our environment, and the impact of not having two parents seems to be pretty large. There's a very high statistical correlation between an absent father and becoming a violent perpetrator. (That's not to say that single parent homes can't be successful, but parents rearing children do need to think about the importance of strong role models that bring different perspectives to the task of living life; I learned things from my father that my mother could never have taught me, and vice versa).

I've seen stats that state single parent births as high as 70% in the black community (and some as low as 30%). Illegitimacy was much, much lower when black crime was lower. But the economic status of blacks i much greater.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(livelychick @ Mar 11 2007, 06:23 AM) [snapback]403734[/snapback]</div>

It was in response to a simplistic statement, and I stand by my analysis as you have properly supported in this reply. What catalyst for crime are speaking about? That’s a nice word and a mere wish from everyone if you can’t specify what the catalyst is.

Wildkow


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Mar 11 2007, 07:29 AM) [snapback]403750[/snapback]</div>

Your disgust with the criminal system is because you got caught and spent time in it, simple as that.

Wildkow

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Mar 11 2007, 09:59 AM) [snapback]403790[/snapback]</div>

Your bitter and angry because you have had a hard life, join the club and deal with it.

Wildkow

 

There are many different thoughts regarding crime and being poor. I was raised by my grandmother-i never knew either of my parents as they weren't interested in me. We were 1 rung up from welfare poor. I was taught positive values by Grandma. I got in a little trouble like most teens, but I also worked since age 10.

I work in 1 high school several days a week. The school has 70% black students and most of them are from a local city where gangs, drug dealers, whores, and drive by shootings are a way of life. I have noted that most of the females are decent to me and they will work part time after school, etc.

I have had relatively few problems with black males respecting me, but many of them won't do schoolwork or any other kind. They lack the desire to want to make something of their lives and think school is for dopes. I have tried on many occasions to talk to them as a helpful adult. Most of them just don't care and don't want to hear me.

On a different contrast I met a class of 9th grade white students from a local affluent town. This bunch was very disrespectful, disgusting, lazy, and typical yuppie nice person***es. I had so much trouble with them I had to have 8 of them sent to ISS.

I judge youths by how they treat me as a facilitator and adult. I always try to tell them positive things that will help them as adults. Much of the time it all falls on deaf ears. I did strike a positive relationship with a black girl who liked me well enough to listen to what I told her.

It's interesting because she had not done any schoolwork since last August. I spent 6 days with her class and she turned in 6 assignments. I also worked with her on a 1 to 1 basis when she needed help. Now whenever she sees me in school she always says hello with a big smile. It makes me feel good that I reached someone who was headed for all F's.

Crime? The blacks tell me it's a way of life where they live and many won't go outside of their homes to get shot at during a drive by.

The well off white yuppie kids have everything, but have shown me no respect as a human being.

I have known welfare kids that grew up and became highly successful and I have known others that are lazy good for nothing parasites that suck off the working class. I don't buy into the being poor excuse for being a no good thug.

I have never had lots of money, but I don't do felonies and violent acts to citizens. I guess if someone wants to be a decent person who has morals and values he or she will do just that.

Tomorrow I will be looking in on Brittany to make sure she is still on task and smiling. Just me 2 cents worth.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ Mar 11 2007, 12:09 PM) [snapback]403828[/snapback]</div>

Wrong again, Kow! I didn't get "caught" in it. I made up my mind to do nonviolent civil disobedience, fully prepared to go to jail and/or prison for it. But since I am a middle-class white boy, the cops never wanted to take me to jail, and the judge didn't want to send me to prison. I actually had to refuse to cooperate with them, on principle, before I ever saw the inside of a jail or prison cell.

I'm angry at the so-called "justice" system (which has no real justice in it) because I've seen what it does to people who, unlike me, were caught up in it for the "crime" of being poor. Because make no mistake about it: nobody gets sent to prison for committing crimes: People get sent to prison for being poor, because rich people commit the same crimes and worse and go scott-free for being rich.

I'm actually grateful for the opportunity to spend time in jail and prison, so that I could meet the people we label as criminals, and learn first-hand how they are treated. It was an education, as valuable as any book-learning. And what I learned is that the system is completely rotten.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ Mar 11 2007, 12:09 PM) [snapback]403828[/snapback]</div>

Wrong one more time! I've had a pretty good life. My parents were never rich when i was growing up, but we always had a roof over our heads and food on the table.

I'm angry at a system that denies so many people the basic necessities that I had. It's an insult to my sense of justice.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Walker1 @ Mar 11 2007, 12:39 PM) [snapback]403863[/snapback]</div>

You have certainly earned my respect! Thanks for what you are doing.

 

Wow I stay away for a weekend and enjoy the sunshine and look what happens

There was point made earlier that the US is at the top of murder list. A side point was made that the US has surpassed Iraq as the most violent place on earth.

I thought that both statements are interesting but are perhaps missing the point entirely. The US should be ranking dead last in gun murders (there is a pun here somewhere ), as a statement of triumph demonstrating that a civil society can enjoy the freedom's and expressions of said freedom, without resulting to using them to oppress or terminate another member of its society. I would love to see the 2nd Amendment continuing to be a right, but also I would love for society to realize that rights are responsibilities and as such they are to be enforced and expressed with care, respect and above all restraint.

Think about about it. The violence seen in Iraq, Israel, Dafur and probably in the US (I am talking gang and drug wars here) are in large due to two reasons: the availability of guns, ammunition and bomb making materials AND religious (or religiously defended) viewpoints justifying the use of the first. The problem here is not so much the right to bear arms which is a right guaranteed by a government, but the selfish and problematic illusion of letting religious dogma and religious law supersede any civil law/right.

So while the right to bear arms may have also intended judicious and proper use of such a right, it is also clearly regulated by other rights and laws in a constitution to control and retard abuse. The only threat here being that something else is above the constitution and can hijack the parts suitable to enforce and spread its message. I think this is clearly the case the *hot spots* of the world. There is always someone who thinks they are better either by birthright, race, religious conviction or due to some historical wrong doing done to them and their followers.

So how do you prevent the abuse of a basic and sensible right, such as the 2nd amendment, without letting it become the basis for a persecution or suppression of another's life, lifestyle or freedoms?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lywyllyn @ Mar 11 2007, 09:14 PM) [snapback]404055[/snapback]</div>

All rights have this same problem; freedom of speech suffers from the fact that speech can sometimes incite to riot, or cause panic. Freedom of religion has to be restricted for the rights of others, so you have no human sacrifice cults or animal cruelty cults. The right to bear arms can be limited under some circumstances.

While the founders probably wouldn't agree, we limit the right to bear arms to those who have not been convicted of a felony. The problem is when a right for law abiding people is abridged on "statistical grounds" that show a certain type of weapon is used most often in crime. As the talk about black crime and victimization shows, you could use statistics to limit rights of certain minority groups to reduce crime. But the denial of rights is more harmful to the innocent than the proposed benefit to society.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE("Oliver Wendel Holmes")</div>

That's where law get complicated - when you freedoms can hurt others. Majority rules...but the losing side in elections have some rights and it can get complex. That was the idea of checks and balances.

Related to this topic: The Texas Legislature is likely to pass a bill that allows people to immediatly use deadly force if their place or car is broken into.

http://www.themonitor.com/onset?id=674&amp...te=article.html

 

dbermanmd,

America is not a parlimentary democracy. If it was, one party could easily win the executive and legislative branches. In our system, it's a little harder with staggered elections in the House, Senate, the President.

Concerning the proposed Texas Law, there are definitely times an intruder merits deadly force. My concern will be the fine print of this bill. What if you have some neighbors that just don't get along and use this law to shoot? The Devil is in the details. Also consider a home owner is unlikely to use a gun as well as a man in blue.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Mar 12 2007, 10:45 AM) [snapback]404222[/snapback]</div>

Maybe it was not clear in para 2 - I was done discussiong American democracy/parlimentary democracy.

Kind of repeating myself, but I was not opposing more rights for someone to defend themselves. Inevitably some will attempt to abuse this proposed law - that's my concern.