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Featured CATL unveils the 620-mile, 10-minute-fast-charging LFP battery

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Gokhan, May 18, 2024.

  1. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    you could buy one last year?
     
  2. FalconSeven

    FalconSeven Member

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    In Europe, yea.
     
  3. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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  4. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Which is much better than it not existing as implied.
    And it coming coming as a 2025MY to our third rate EV market is a better outcome for us than is the case with half the EV models VW makes.
     
  5. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    First it needs to be listed by fueleconomy.gov. Then if it comes with J3400 charging, I'll kick the tires. But never the first model year. Let the early adopters identify the infantile problems.

    Bob Wilson
     
  6. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    I guess we need to take these announcements with a grain of salt.

    These are their current NMC-cathode specs:

    Energy density: 265 Wh/kg
    Charging time to 80% SOC: 5 minutes

    And these are their next-generation-LFP-cathode specs:

    Energy density: 205 Wh/kg
    Charging time to 80% SOC: 10 minutes

    So, their next-generation LFP is still twice as slow as their current-generation NMC. Moreover, I don't believe that their current-generation NMC can even do 20-minute fast charging and achieve the industry-standard 800 cycles with more than 80% capacity retention, let alone 5-minute fast charging. The energy density is still much less as well. Nevertheless, LFP-cathode batteries are considerably cheaper and more environmentally friendly.
     
    #26 Gokhan, May 19, 2024
    Last edited: May 19, 2024
  7. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I suspect we will continue to see battery improvements. In particular, it looks like increasing the silicon content in anodes can pay big dividends if the swelling is managed. There are other technical approaches that may yet bear fruit. The longer I can get good service from my Tesla, the more likely the replacement will be a significant improvement.

    So I took a snapshot from fueleconomy.gov and found:
    upload_2024-5-19_23-32-41.png

    • 2021 Tesla Model 3 is still the most efficient compared to other EVs.
      • 24 kWh * $0.12 = $2.88 / 100 mi vs 25 kWh * $0.12 = $3.00 / 100 mi
        • @75 mph; charging at home, and; does not discount 15% free chargers
    • The 210 mile range works because of 5 years of SuperCharge and CCS-1 growth. upload_2024-5-19_23-57-20.png
    There are no range issues even after losing 30 miles of battery range due to expected degradation. The growth of fast DC chargers has been faster than loss of battery range. Notice the "wrench" icons, those are fast DC chargers planned or being installed.

    Operational scenario, first drive in the morning with 90-100% charge to first breakfast stop, up to 3 hours. Subsequent segments charge to what is needed with a 30-40 mi reserve, typically 1.5-2.5 segments.

    IMHO, excessive increasing of the battery capacity: increases the weight; increases price and; reduces efficiency. There may be areas between the Rockies and Mississippi River that more range is needed. But that ain't me.

    Bob Wilson
     
  8. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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  9. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    what happened to 'game over'?
     
  10. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Xeno's paradox:

    That which is in locomotion must arrive at the half-way stage before it arrives at the goal.

    Bob Wilson
     
  11. Isaac Zachary

    Isaac Zachary Senior Member

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    I thought that "game over" just meant that something is a news article about EV's written by an EV enthusiast.
     
  12. drash

    drash Senior Member

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    Huh, I almost purchased a Yoshino Solid-State Portable Power Station B330 SST this morning on an Amazon lightning deal. A bit too expensive for that low of a power. I can get an Anker for a lot lower price but it will be larger and weigh a lot more.
     
  13. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Toyota was promising to show off a solid state BEV at the 2020 Olympics, and possibly before. After that no show, they stated their solid state wasn't robust enough yet for EVs; cracks formed in them. So the first commercial use was going to be in hybrids. Would have been neat if the new Prius had one, but that didn't happen. Looks like they will do bipolar Li-ion before getting the solid state out.

    We now have a solid state power station that has been out about a year, and it shows what has been said about solid state for cars. That the advantages come with a price. It will cost more. Traditional lithium batteries have over a decade head start in optimizing producing them, and solid state likely can't take advantage of that. They also may not last as long. The Yoshino is 2400 cycles to 80% to Anker's 3000 for LFP.
     
  14. John321

    John321 Senior Member

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    Battery breakthroughs are happening quickly

    Korean researchers develop battery that could eliminate major issue with electric cars: 'A new era where rapid charging becomes a reality' (msn.com)
    "As detailed by Techopedia, a team from the Korea Advanced Institute of Science and Technology, or KAIST, has developed a sodium-based battery that can charge in only seconds.

    To do this, the researchers incorporated improved materials in the system's anodes as well as its cathodes (the parts of a battery between which electrons flow during charging and discharging). The result, according to KAIST, is an energy storage system with a fast-charging cycle that has the enhanced power characteristics of supercapacitors


    Another benefit of sodium-based batteries is that salt is far more inexpensive than lithium, which is used in the majority of EV batteries. It's also 500 times more abundant, according to KAIST. "

    "This hybrid sodium-ion energy storage device marks a significant leap forward, overcoming the limitations of current storage solutions," Professor Kang Jeong-gu said. "It heralds a new era where rapid charging becomes a reality for all electronic devices, including electric vehicles."

    Automobile Manufacturing is a business that is constantly changing and extremely competitive.

    Take a look at these innovations from Hyundai that are going to change cars dramatically:

    Beat the Heat: Hyundai Motor's Innovative Nano Cooling Film to Help Customers in Hot Climates Keep Cool - Hyundai Newsroom

    Hyundai unveils nano cooling film able to slash interior heat in cars (engineeringnews.co.za)

    Hyundai Unleashes Groundbreaking Nanotechnologies: Self-Repairing Vehicles, Solar Cell Battery Charging - EconoTimes
     
    #34 John321, May 21, 2024
    Last edited: May 21, 2024
  15. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    ...lease payments?
    ...AFTER 'estimated gas savings?'

    I was hoping that Tesla was above all of that.
    I just visited their site and it appears that their 'third-party financers' are not immune from Bidenomics.
    https://www.tesla.com/support/vehicle-financing-options
    Speaking of scams......
    Mentioning LiFePO 4 batteries as 'environmentally friendly?'
    Even Musk acknowledges that claims of environmental benefit are a little complicated....albeit with Li-ion? instead of LiFePO4 (?)
    Of course if one discounts the modern-day slavery/Genocidal labour then eliminating large numbers of humans from the biosphere COULD be a net credit 'eh? ;)

    This latest napkin drawing will be a game-changer ONLY if they last a sufficient number of rapid charge-discharge cycles and they don't cost more than the rest of the car....

    Physics and Chemistry are HARD science for a REASON.
     
  16. Isaac Zachary

    Isaac Zachary Senior Member

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    That's probably true, but from my perspective, it seems that nearly all automobile manufacturers just keep trying to feed us the same ol' ICE crossovers. Blah! Give me something interesting, better for the evironment and affordable.
     
    Trollbait likes this.
  17. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Researches are working on hybrid battery/capacitors to get the best of both. The hurdle to fast charge times will be the energy requirements of an EV charger that can take advantage of it.

    Then they don't talk about energy density. Na-ion batteries are lower than Li-ion. CATL has one, but they pair it with a Li-ion battery for EVs. Don't think it went into any car cause lithium prices came down to leave LFP a better value.
     
    Isaac Zachary likes this.
  18. John321

    John321 Senior Member

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    Try a Prius Prime- Over 30 miles in EV mode or 60 mpg on gas - KIA NIRO will do about the same thing. Plug in at home and drive over 90 miles a day on all electric. Both charge on a 120 outlet if necessary. Only two cars in the world approach these credentials - hardly commonly manufactured vehicles. Both vehicles on the affordable end of the vehicle spectrum.

    Try a Smart Car from Mercedes Benz

    How about the new ID BUZZ coming to America from VW.

    Old School? then get off your rear end and rebuild a classic car like an old VW bus or buy a rebuilt one

    1973 Volkswagen Vans for sale near Statesville, North Carolina 28677 - 102013321 - Classics on Autotrader

    Is your glass 1/2 full or 1/2 empty?
    From Poor Jewish Boy to Founder of Home Depot (collive.com)
     
    #38 John321, May 21, 2024
    Last edited: May 21, 2024
  19. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Five more years from my 2019 Tesla. The chart was there to show EV progress continues and the longer I wait, the better will be my next EV (probably a Tesla.)

    Bob Wilson
     
  20. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    LFP is a type of lithium-ion cell. When they don't mention LFP in the name of the lithium-ion cell, they typically refer to an NMC lithium-ion cell. The difference is only in the cathode active material.

    LFP refers to the catholyte (cathode active material) in the lithium-ion cell, which has iron phosphate. The most common catholyte in lithium-ion cells is NMC, which has nickel, namaganese, and cobalt, all of which are difficult to mine. That is why LFP lithium-ion cells are more environmentally friendly than NMC lithium-ion cells.

    Lithium iron phosphate battery: Resource availability—Wikipedia
     
    #40 Gokhan, May 21, 2024
    Last edited: May 21, 2024