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CH₄ + 2O₂ ⇒

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by ChapmanF, Sep 14, 2018.

  1. Raytheeagle

    Raytheeagle Senior Member

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    For every forward pointing finger, there are 3 pointing in the reverse direction ;).
     
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  2. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    I envy you. Our last house in city was also all electric, but no where close to net-zero. Our entire house was heated by electric baseboard heater. Our house was too far away from gas main for service. Conversion to oil furnace was thought but still too expensive to retrofit ductwork. Heat pump were not yet advanced enough back then to be very effective in sub zero winter temperature, and our house was completely surrounded by tall mature trees and had almost no direct sunshine. We heated our house with wood burning stove. After we moved away from city, we now have no natural gas service at all in our town. Our house was initially heated with propane and oil first. I managed to get rid of propane heaters and now use wood burning stove as supplement to oil boiler, but our electric use are still too high for cost effective solar PV conversion. I recently had solar analysis done on our house, and they came up with 20+ years payback period if we are to install large enough PV panels to cover our use.:(:cry::sick:
     
  3. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    What is your annual electric use (in kWh, not $)? What is your hot water energy source?

    This house initially burned 10,600 kWh/year over a long period, or 11,000 over a shorter period. But we cut that in half, down to the 5000 to 5500/year range (under 5k the first net-zero year, but now we are getting lazy :)), while producing a hair over 6000 kWh/year. The biggest single chunks of energy savings were displacing baseboard heat in most of the house with the DHP, and converting hot water from electric to a heat pump. But upgraded floor and attic insulation (discovering more than 100 ft^2 of uninsulated ceiling), improved air sealing against infiltration, and a variety of other things also contributed. This happened in numerous steps over 9 years, not as a single project.

    But as you are not starting with electric heat, your potential electric savings are unlikely to be as large. And if you have a newer house in a colder climate, it would be a different challenge than my 1980's house in a milder climate.

    BTW, as an engineer, I designed and installed the PV system myself, lowering the cost. PV was installed in three stages: a starter system, then expansion to a substantial system, then a jump to net-zero after conservation greatly lowered the bar. Professional installation will be a significant cost adder.
     
    #23 fuzzy1, Sep 14, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2018
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  4. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    Our current home electricity use is bit higher than your initial mark. Last 7 years record show it has been fairly constant about 12,000 kwh/year or 1,000 kwh/month. No big seasonal or yearly fluctuations. We do not use electricity for heating house or water so those two usually largest source of energy demands are not included in this figure. Our water is heated by oil boiler system which is main heating source for the house using hot water baseboard radiator for heat distribution. Our house has no AC, thus no high power demands in summer. We do not even use any type of space heater and/or electric blanket type of heaters for winter, so there is no sharp spike in electric use in winter either. To be honest, I am baffled as to why our electricity use is so high. To this end I have done some individual appliance level energy monitoring using Kill-a-watt type meters. But this did not pinpoint a single big item. Although some big ticket items, including well pump, oven range, clothes dryer, forced vent fan for the oil burner, other exhaust fans and lightings which are either directly wired or connected to 240V were not measured. To really get closer look at our electricity use, I am thinking to install whole house energy monitor with appliance level identifier like Home Monitoring by Sense. Over the years, I have done most of obvious energy efficiency improvements, such ase switching to high efficiency appliances, installing LED light bulbs, increasing attic and window installations, but have not seen much reduction in total usage so far. It seems to reduce the electricity use in our current house requires some drastic lifestyle changes.

    Yeah, I would love to tackle PV installation DIY, but I have no qualification or knowledge. If I jump to solar, I would have to have professional installer to do most of work for me. That does make cost prohibitive. Make no sense to invest in PV system or any other major renovation of house that I would have to be paying next 20+ years when I don't even know if we will be living here longer than 10 years, the time frame I would like to retire and may move to a "tiny house" with passive solar built in. :(
     
  5. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    What Caused the Massachusetts Gas Explosions? - The Atlantic

    After Massachusetts Gas Explosions, Weary Residents Ask, What Happened? - The New York Times

    I am reminded a little of when I had the inside gas piping redone in this house. It was all done in threaded black pipe that had been reworked so many times in the life of the house it looked like the old plumbing screensaver, and the water heater ended up located spang in the middle of the basement, in the way of everything.

    So I did a redesign with some black pipe from the meter location to a manifold, and CSST runs to the appliances. The AHJ would not approve me doing it myself, so I called in a well-regarded licensed contractor to do the work.

    When I saw them packing up and getting ready to turn the gas on, I said, "wait a sec, did I miss the pressure test?" They said something like, "well, that's when we turn the gas on, it's under pressure, then we test for leaks."

    So I said, but I thought the gas is only about ¼ psi, isn't there a test in the code to be done with compressed air or nonflammable gas at no less than 3 psi and no less than 10 minutes showing no pressure loss?

    And they looked at each other like, drat, he knows about the pressure test, and they called their office to send somebody out with the compressed air tank they had not brought with them, and they did the test, and of course the gauge needle did not stay put for ten minutes, and actually correcting the leaks it turned up in all this freshly-assembled piping kept them on site the better part of another day. They weren't grumpy to me about it (they knew it was in the code, after all), but they'd definitely earned the $1200 by the time they were really done.

    It seemed like the usual standard was, unless the city inspector or homeowner actually insisted on the pressure test, just assume at the normal ¼ psi gas pressure any minor leaks won't be noticed much, and if it doesn't blow any obvious bubbles, just call it a day.

    -Chap
     
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  6. William Redoubt

    William Redoubt Senior Member

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    Aged infrastructure (worn out). Gas pressure spikes above the ability of pressure regulators to contain. The pressure increase affects the entire section of the distribution system instantly. Similarly worn/constructed devices of the same age fail in typical pattern. See: Takata airbags. Manufacturing limitations/defects are the same across devices of the same manufacture specifications due to tight tolerances and quality control (Six Sigma) that limits variation. One bad apple is an indicator of a defective device similarly made and properly deployed.

    Gas must be highly pressurized for transport in order to deliver the volume needed at the consumer end. It's science!
     
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  7. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Still leaves room to be interested in the specifics of this particular event as they come out ... in the same way that the specifics of certain big electrical grid failures have been fascinating, even if the basic principles are familiar.

    One major gas distribution incident in my town here (I was going to say "recent" but it was more than 15 years ago now) was the one that cleared the block of houses where a CVS pharmacy now stands. A road crew had been doing directional boring at the intersection to pull some traffic-signal wiring, and the boring head hit a gas line, underground. The escaping gas filtered through the soil and through foundation cracks into people's basements, then got ignited by sparks, pilots, or whatever, and cleared the houses off the block.

    The unexpected thing I learned in the coverage of that incident was that the mercaptan odorant that is added to gas, so you can smell it, is very effectively removed by filtering through soil, so the gas that was filling these basements had no smell.

    One of the last houses to go was apparently set off by a gas company employee, who entered the basement, decided it was free of gas by smell, and went to relight the appliances. (If I remember right, there were only four minor injuries in the whole story, even including to the gas employee right there in the basement. The house all went away from him.)

    I know they have gas detectors that don't rely on the smell of mercaptan, so it's strange that trained gas tech trusted his nose.

    -Chap
     
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  8. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    It has to moist soil. It is the water that absorbs the mercaptan.
     
  9. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    I guess at the burial depth of the mains, the soil doesn't get totally dry much.

    -Chap
     
  10. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    Watching closely myself.
    My first theory was air in the gas lines, but I have to keep that to myself because they say Chicago has very similar over-pressure issue. I'll be looking to make sure they are being open and honest on causes.

    I had some unversity advanced degree technical training from a world class expert on air fuel combustion, so I am inclined to that, but I know I can be wrong until they say more.

    PS- I had a gas leak at my house this year a few months back.
    The prior owner ran a natural gas line (copper) and a phone line to the family room - which we never used the phone line. Well the darn phone line apparently had power, and apparently the squirrels took a few bites out, Then we had a short circuit which somehow ate thru the copper line over time. Smell was the clue as this is under the deck/inaccessible under the low-to-ground deck. I am a believer in natural gas to save the planet from coal burning, but I believe there are problems with natural gas workmanship/safety etc that need to be addressed.
     
    #30 wjtracy, Sep 15, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2018
  11. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    And these unnoticed leaks essentially wipe out the AGW benefit of natural gas. :(
     
  12. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Well, that would be a quantitative calculation. The amounts would have to be very small at any one house, given that most homeowners will be strongly motivated to report any smell of gas (which can be smelled at really low concentrations, as long as the mercaptan's still in it).

    At the same time, in the event of an overpressure getting past the outdoor regulator and driving the inside piping from 7" up to 34" of pressure or whatever, I can see little uncaught leaks like that becoming significant....

    -Chap
     
  13. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    "effectively removed by filtering through soil"@27 Whenever discussions far afield turn to rarely-recognized soil properties, I get a warm fizzy feeling.

    H3CSH a bit soluble in water, but I suspect main effect happens at chemically active soil surfaces.
     
  14. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    gas company and fire dept getting whiffs of gas again today
     
  15. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    A methane-detecting drone doing transects through low sky would be very handy in such situations.

    Countries with antiquated infrastructure provide market demand. If somebody is not making these, they will be soon. Nation's second-best technology school ( :) ) is in Boston; no shortage of skills.
     
  16. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    politics is complicated
     
  17. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Taking a closer look at labels on appliance regulators, often they don't just say "max inlet ½ psi", they say replace after any exposure to more than ½ psi.

    If what I learned about the outdoor regulator applies, and high enough pressure arrived on the service lines to get past it and vent, it seems virtually certain that the downstream appliances all saw pressures from slightly above ½ psi to a pound and a quarter, or more.

    ... suggesting there might be a lot of replacement parts to be sold (or whole replacement appliances) to people served on those lines, even whose houses escaped any fire. I wonder what that will do to demand and pricing. How many appliance regulators are made and sold in a normal year? Are they affected by any of the recent tariffs?

    -Chap
     
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  18. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Oooh neat stuff. Thinking about "telltales"; shipping labels that change color when exposed to temperatures or acceleration forces beyond safe ranges. Could such a thing be made for over pressure and built into gas regulator hardware?
     
  19. Raytheeagle

    Raytheeagle Senior Member

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    Usually a pressure relief device when exposed to an over pressureevent will not completely reseal itself. This is the case with most refrigerant reliefs, requiring purchasing a new one.

    Haven’t researched this in the residential market, but similar line of replacement should occur. But that’ll involve the utility company and a quick supply of replacement parts.

    Hopefully they have better luck with sourcing, as a recent source we used for refrigerant reliefs no longer manufactures in the US.
     
  20. padroo

    padroo Senior Member

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