Challenge: Name an institution that has donated more humantarian aid for the sick and poor than the

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mikepaul @ May 9 2006, 10:37 AM) [snapback]252109[/snapback]</div>

You have failed to understand the scriptures properly. The Bible never ever says that it is always "wrong" to fight and kill in a war. Have you never read about King David "a man after God's own heart" who killed thousands in war. If what King David was wrong as you say why didn't God tell him not to kill in war? Have you never read what John the Baptist said to soldiers who came to him. Luke 3:14 "Likewise the soldiers asked him, saying, “And what shall we do?â€
So he said to them, “Do not intimidate anyone or accuse falsely, and be content with your wages.â€
Is Jesus talking about an evil nation, government or is he talking about an evil person or individual.
Matthew 5:38 "But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also." It is clear in the context itself he is talking about a person not a government and nation as you have wrongly interpreted.
Have you ever read Romans 13: 1-7 "Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor."
Have you not read about the praise Jesus gives concerning a centurion soldier after his sermon on the mount? Matthew 8:5-13 "Now when Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, pleading with Him, 6 saying, “Lord, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, dreadfully tormented.â€
7 And Jesus said to him, “I will come and heal him.â€
8 The centurion answered and said, “Lord, I am not worthy that You should come under my roof. But only speak a word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I also am a man under authority, having soldiers under me. And I say to this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes; and to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.â€
10 When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, “Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! 11 And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.†13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go your way; and as you have believed, so let it be done for you.†And his servant was healed that same hour.
Have you never heard of the saying "that the only way evil can triumph is for good men to do nothing."

 

United Way: America’s Number 1 Charity - A Snapshot of Resources Raised for 2004-2005

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Randy @ May 9 2006, 11:58 AM) [snapback]252152[/snapback]</div>

If what Hitler did was wrong why didn't God tell him not to kill in war?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Randy @ May 9 2006, 11:58 AM) [snapback]252152[/snapback]</div>

Wait.

The Ten Commandments include "Thou Shalt Not Kill".

Why should any other part of any document be used to override that? Other than to maintain the power and money-flow of Religious Leaders?...

Martyrs supposedly gave their lives rather than deny God. Regular folks hunt down weasel-words in the Bible to avoid doing the same...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mikepaul @ May 9 2006, 01:20 PM) [snapback]252219[/snapback]</div>

Actually it says "You shall not murder". King David who wrote Psalm 23 which says in verse 3 "He leads me in the paths of righteousness for His name’s sake." Again I ask why didn't God tell David he was wrong to kill in war?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Randy @ May 9 2006, 02:22 PM) [snapback]252257[/snapback]</div>

And I ask you why didn't God tell Hitler he was wrong to kill in war?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Randy @ May 9 2006, 02:22 PM) [snapback]252257[/snapback]</div>

Wow. What colossal gall. Not you, whoever decided that 'murder' was a specific intent and reading it that way allowed them to 'kill' without any repercussions. I now see it on other websites too.

Just more weaseling, to slaughter anyone who tries to cut off the money or the influence.

But I'll bet Wildkow thinks it's just fine...

 

The whole referring to the bible thing seems like a great copout. It's based on the premise that the bible is (a) historically accurate, and (B) created by the divine word. The bible wasn't created till some 300 years after Jesus' death, and then it was by committee... the committee had to combine the discrepencies of the 4 versions that existed before then in order to create what you know as the "bible". Needless to say, they combined it in a way that was most beneficial to thier goals - world domination of the masses. Take out the belief that it is historically accurate and the divine word and you have a wonderful piece of fiction that more people have died over than any world war.

Most people interpret sections of the bible, and ignore the sections that don't fit thier purpose. Does anybody fully read and obey Leviticus? And not just the sections about adultery. What about touching the womans bed during her period of uncleanlyness (Leviticus 15:19-28)?? How about masterbation - according to Leviticus 20:1 he should be stoned. Homosexuals too (Leviticus 20:13). If you want to follow the bible, then follow it completely. Going to confession because you digressed is a copout.

Whenever one quotes from the bible, we have to think as why would we believe this book? What proof do we have that it is the word of god? Just because somebody has said that it is over the years doesn't make it so. Read "The Jesus Papers" for a fresh look on how the bible really came about and what the geo-political climate was back then that has led to the current church.

 

Proof that Christians can use the Bible to justify just about anything:

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/florida...s&storyid=57428

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ May 11 2006, 08:14 PM) [snapback]253941[/snapback]</div>

Here's one for you:
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm

And that's just the crusades. We won't count how many other countless lives have been lost in the name of god.

Here's a few references on how good the christian church really is:

http://gbgm-umc.org/UMW/bible/crusades.stm

Go ahead and follow the links. Pay special attention to statements such as this:

Real nice in the name of Jesus, isn't it??? But I suppose you'll find some justification in the bible for that (but wait, we're supposed to be working under the assumption that the bible is not historically accurate and fictional - justify it WITHOUT using the bible).

Or let's take the following quote from the same web page:

Hmmm.... seems like there was a bit of a desire for power by the pope... could it be that they weren't really acting in the name of god, but instead just looking for power (kinda sounds like the current administration).

And finally (it's late), here's the legacy that you are defending:

READ THE BOOK AND LEARN SOMETHING. "The Jesus Papers" by Michael Baigent. Available at Costco.

 

I thought United Way "funded" many of the other charities. You cannot say Charity A gave 1mil, B ave 1 mil, and C gave one mil then say United Way gave 3 mil if the money went THRU the other charities.

Maybe i am missing something.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(nerfer @ May 2 2006, 01:57 PM) [snapback]248740[/snapback]</div>

Nerfer and Bellboy bring up very interesting points. Certianly there has been alot done in the name of religion (and let's broaden it, it's not just Christians) that is abominable. Suicide bombers in Iraq and Isreal in the name of Muslim. Bombing abortion clinics right here in the US in the name of Christianity. Horrible, shameful acts that are actually against the true teachings of both of these religions and yet the fundamentalists still do it. Ultimately it's for power... fundamentalist leaders love the power (the personal ambitions alluded to in the post). The problem is that these same people use the bible (and quote from it as Wildkow does) as a justification for thier acts. In itself, that seems to be sacreligous to me.

As for the hate of Christians on this board, I'm not going to say it exists or not. I personally have little respect for the fundamentalist movement who believe they are holier than though or go through life trying to convert everyone when they are some of the most corrupt and sinful humans around. Of course, conversion somewhat part of the mission in Christianity - there is no greater honor than to save ones soul and help them find Christ. It's strange that I never see Hasidic Jews or Catholics knocking on my door to convert me, and yet I had a nice Asian man with his blond supposed wife and 2 kids come knocking just this morning. I showed them the Mazzuzah on my door and told them that if they understood what that meant then they should also understand that I am completely not interested and to get lost. I wish I had the fortitude of my friend from Europe who never experienced door-to-door religion in his native country of Sweden. When he was here a Mormon came to the door. He thought it was a salesman (well, not that far off, was he) and innocently said "I'm sorry, we don't want any" and closed the door

On the topic of GWB, there's two reasons why his inneptitude creates backlash against the Christians.
1. The Christians helped get him elected, a fact that they've made very public. As he has been a huge screw up in general (29% approval rating!) the people who elected him get the brunt of the backlash too.
2. He panders to the Christians in ways that are not in the best interest of American society or the ideals that the country was founded on (life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness by ALL). Gay marraige, abortiion, discontinuing of federal funding to any group that does not teach EXCLUSIVELY abstinence, insistance that "Inteligent Design" should be tought in public schools, blatant disregard of separation of church and state... the list goes on.

BTW, I think it's important to seperate Christians (fundamentalists, i.e. baptists and born again) from Christianity (which includes Catholics, Protestants, Lutherans, etc). I think that most people are against fundamentalist Christians (myself included) and not Christainity or general Judeo-Christian values. The term "christian" when related to the definiton "Showing a loving concern for others; humane. " is the basis off all Judeo-Christain religions.

Anyway, enough rant. I was always told you could not argue politics or religion (and today they are one in the same).

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ May 14 2006, 01:01 AM) [snapback]255111[/snapback]</div>

Well, what I have observed from this thread(which recall you started) is that you haven't actively spoken out against any of it. I have also observed you using quotes from the bible as evidence to support your arguments. Whether you support the actions of the followers or not is something I think you need to come out and tell us. Do you support bombing abortion clinics? How about hate crimes in general (against gays and people of other religions)? The bible does say we should stone male homosexuals (which also makes it sound like lesbians are OK!). Is it OK to force your religion on others because the bible mandates it? Where do you stand on separation of church and state?

Tell us exactly how you stand. From the original start of this discussion, you stated you were tired of the hate filled speach against God, Religion, Christians and Fundamentalists. Here's your chance to disavow the hihg-profile acts of some Christains and Fundamentalists that is giving the truly faithful a bad reputation.

Steve

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ May 15 2006, 12:45 AM) [snapback]255571[/snapback]</div>

Wildkow:

I have not accused you of anything. I'm sorry if that is what was implied. What I did give you is an opportunity to set the record straight on where you stand and that you have beleifs above and beyond what is in the Bible.

People of faith, mostly the Christian Conservatives do some pretty crappy things in the name of thier religion. Are they the majority of the Christains?? Don't know. One name that has been pushed around by the Pat Roberts crowd is the "Moral Majority" certainly implying that they are. They are certainly the most vocal whether they are the majority or not. One of thier justifications is by spewing bible quotes to defend thier position. Certainly this stereotypes others who do the same thing as being associated as in the same group. Right or wrong, it's fact.

The same thing happens with Muslims after 9/11. How many people immediately associate Muslims with terrorists right now? The true teachings of muslim is that of peace, but a small group of fundamentalist muslims spew thier message of hate which of course makes people believe all muslims are the same.

If tolerance is what you are after, it has to start at home. Be tolerant of other religions and don't try to convert everyone. Don't shove the morals of your beliefs down people's throats by ligislature (not that you are doing it in particular, but obviously political figures who use the same title of Christian do). Actively speak out against messges of hate instead of passively not condoning it. Spread the true message of your religion instead of sitting idly by while the vocal hijack your religion for you. Only in this way will we re-unite the country be more tolerant of other religions and lifestyles. Until then, you cannot blame those who currently feel persecuted by the religious right to be intolerant of the religious right's intolerance.

Steve