Cheaper to charge at 240 than 120?

Discussion in 'Prime Plug-in Charging' started by stevepea, May 12, 2017.

  1. padroo

    padroo Senior Member

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    Clicking noise with turning is usually what you hear with a bad CV joint.
     
  2. ct89

    ct89 Active Member

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    I'll confirm that I also see between 6.1 and 6.3KWh per full charge using the L2 Clipper Creek charger. Didn't measure when I was using L1...Gave that up long ago, L2 has been well worth it.
     
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  3. CraigM

    CraigM Active Member

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    Just think how much more you would like it if the Prime had a 6.6 kWh onboard charger, and not the puny 3.3 kWh charger.
     
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  4. Oniki

    Oniki Active Member

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    I have a 9.6 kW EVSE at home that I use in our LEAF with a 6.6 kW OBC. The Prime OBC does not bother me at all since the battery is smaller and fills up in ~ 2 hours.
     
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  5. Wuzki

    Wuzki Member

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    Does the stock charger can be used on 240 v outlet? I had an 240 outlet by my drive way was installed for ac unit. Now the ac unit is no long in use. I can use it to charge my car much faster?
     
  6. Oniki

    Oniki Active Member

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    As supplied by Toyota, no.
     
  7. TDR Marine Engineer

    TDR Marine Engineer Junior Member

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    Japan models do a super charge. I think it’s 80% in 20 minutes. The DC charge port is the place you store the cover in the charge connection box. Too bad USA wouldn’t allow a quicker charge for us. I bet it’s regulations causing us to not have it available.
     
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  8. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    No, it's the lack of a standard. Having 3 here makes high-speed an expensive gamble.
     
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  9. a_gray_prius

    a_gray_prius Rare Non-Old-Blowhard Priuschat Member

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    When I see the taper, the car typically reads 30 minutes left.

    The most power I've ever pulled from a Chargepoint EVSE has been 32A on our Tesla (which would have taken 40A at the time, 10kW peak @ 240V). I don't think any Chargepoint EVSEs go higher than 32A?

    This is a kinda strange way of looking at AC power supply? I thought 208V (three-phase) was pretty much commercial delivery and 240V was pretty much residential?

    Lots of EVs use the CHAdeMO fast charge standard though (e.g. most Leafs) - not sure how it's down to "regulations"?

    Not sure how CHAdeMO charging, which is found in quite a lot of urban areas and the standard for all Japanese EV fast chargers, equates to being an "expensive gamble". I'd argue that the lack of a CHAdeMO plug is probably due to cost savings and the relatively small benefit for charging the small battery.
     
    #69 a_gray_prius, Mar 3, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2018
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  10. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    CHAdeMO may disappear and be replaced by ICS.
     
  11. a_gray_prius

    a_gray_prius Rare Non-Old-Blowhard Priuschat Member

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    First, I'm going to assume you're talking about CCS (google for ICS charging doesn't come up with anything).

    Yes, and the J1772 may be replaced by something as well - however it's very important that there's a quite sizable installed base of CHAdeMO chargers out there already operational. It's great that there's a new standard, but what's important in what's out there now for a car that's being sold now (and not in a few years' time).

    I've seen only two CCS chargers ever - I have no doubt that they're being rolled out, but they are also way behind. Look at the data on Plugshare yourself: https://s3.amazonaws.com/plugshare.production.assets/assets/reports/Q4/DCFC+Growth.png There are 207 CCS chargers in the entire USA - that's almost the same number of new Tesla superchargers installed in Q4 2017 in California alone (187). Here's some older 2016 data from California alone comparing CCS and CHAdeMO.
     
  12. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    We just got a new 50kW DC fast charger at work. Guess what? It has both connectors - CHAdeMO and CCS.
     
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  13. CraigM

    CraigM Active Member

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    True for charging when you aren’t in a hurry. I was referring to times when I get home from one errand, and then want to go out again 10 - 15 minutes later.
     
  14. TDR Marine Engineer

    TDR Marine Engineer Junior Member

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    I’d say expensive for the cords for the station owners, not for the car manufacturer. It’s only different in plug style. Adaptors can be made to fit. The car already takes in AC to charge a battery!
     
  15. TDR Marine Engineer

    TDR Marine Engineer Junior Member

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    This is a kinda strange way of looking at AC power supply? I thought 208V (three-phase) was pretty much commercial delivery and 240V was pretty much residential?[/QUOTE]

    Not all commercial use 3 phase. 3 phase is for industrial applications such as motors and large commercial ovens. On ChargePoint website the stations take anywhere from 208-240 volt. The station near me has its own meter due to the city installing it. They certainly don’t need 3 phase for a small station.
     
  16. TDR Marine Engineer

    TDR Marine Engineer Junior Member

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    This is exactly why Japan installed the fast charger. Shoppers would be able to charge between every shop, dine, and tea event. No use for the ICE in the city.

    As far as regulations... DC fast charging wouldn’t have cost Toyota much to install. DC is what the battery uses to charge. It probably boils down to recent events and regulations. If Toyota hasn’t tested the batteries for long enough to ensure the batteries can handle it (fires / explosions) it would have been allowed. Not many cars use these prismatic li-ion batteries. Most use the space wasting round cells.
     
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  17. Oniki

    Oniki Active Member

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    For those times, use petrol.

    There is also something to be said for keeping the C charge rate down to prolong battery longevity.
     
  18. Oniki

    Oniki Active Member

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    Here is an IEEE abstract that looked at L1 vs L2 charging efficiency
    They found that L2 is 5.6% more efficient on average with a substantial range between data points, in part explained by ambient temperature differences.

    One confounder is that L2 is often at a higher amperage than L1, leading to some dilution of of the higher voltage advantage by increased resistance losses. This is probably not much in play with the Prius Prime due to the relatively low max kW rate. At my home an L1 charge using the bundled mobile EVSE would run at ~ 12 Amps while my 9.6 kW, 240 Volt EVSE from Clipper Creek is throttled down to ~ 15 Amps by the Prime.

    The study also found considerably worse efficiency when the charging event was a low (below 4) kWh amount. Anybody know why ?
     
    #78 Oniki, Mar 4, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2018
  19. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    But how many Prime sales would that cost Toyota, because of the increased price? The gen2 Volt with a battery of about twice the capacity of the Prime's has just a 3.7kWh charger because GM's research showed that most wouldn't care to pay for the faster level 2 charging. Most gen1 Volt owners were fine with just level 1.

    It is simply cost and our low gas prices keeping it off the Prime. CHAdeMO might not require much more in the way of parts to increase the car's price, but it does require licensing to use. Places like Japan have higher gas prices, and they might also have less access to home charging. So CHAdeMO is worth the cost there.

    For the US, the low gas prices meant Toyota felt lower MSRP was more important than DC charging.

    Whatyou are calling the charger actually isn't. That is the EVSE, and the AC charger is onboard the car. The EVSE is just circuitry that monitors the incoming current and communicates it to the car so a safe rate of charging is used.

    The EVSE that came with the car could work with the 240 volt outlet with an adapter, but it won't charge faster. The EVSE cord is just a 15 amp one, and the EVSE is programed for running off a 120v, 15 amp outlet, so it won't draw more current than that. It might be worth using for charging your car simply because it is its own circuit, and its larger gauge cabling won't heat up as much, even without getting a faster rate.

    There are EVSE's available that can just plug into that A/C outlet, and give you the faster charge rate. You also need to know the outlet's amp rating to get the right plug or adapter
     
    #79 Trollbait, Mar 5, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2018
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  20. HPrimeAdvanced

    HPrimeAdvanced Senior Member

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    Mr. Trollbait,
    What's your estimate of the cost differential to have included this charge feature?
    Also, retrofit possible?
    You can guess that all these "early generation" EVs and plug-ins will plummet in value in the next 5 years, if the anticipated improvements to batteries and charging occur; the price of progress!

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
    AChoiredTaste.com
     
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