check engine light

100MPG · Jul 27, 2006

unfortunately, i don't have the luxury of flying out on a weekday, so won't have access to any phoenix mechanics. i do have some limited vehicular savvy that i could apply to inpection: are there any points in particular you would recommend inspecting? this is what i plan:

*drive it, including cornering, and on the freeway. see if it feels like my 2004 #9 (time to get rid of the saab, so getting ANOTHER prius. how's that for prius crazy?)

*check to make sure the MPG is up there and power feels OK. i figure this is like tolstoy's happy family: a whole lot of systems have to be working spot on for the MPG to be >45

*look at the frame rails and extensions to make sure they don't look munged.

*check the OBD-II code(s) to make sure they don't seem like anything fatal.

*talk him down on price a bit based on quarer panel misfit (which savings i will owe entirely to you, galaxee)

*generally inspect under hood and beneath car to make sure stuff looks like my 2004.

*make sure nav, SKS, etc. work

leaving 6AM sunday morning. you guys made me nervous enough that i also bought a REFUNDABLE return ticket for later that afternoon, just in case. i flash that puppy to let him know i'm serious.

***what am i missing?

(i really appreciate all the help; thanks for the tips! i will definitely report back how it went. )

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ Jul 27 2006, 03:52 PM) [snapback]293403[/snapback]</div>

if the car does turn out to be a real mess, i think the seller has enough mistakes/enough omissions of info (intentional or not) that you could back out of the sale claiming the car was not as advertised. the biggest thing i'd use is the fact that he claims the warranty is still existing. but it's a salvage title. i think that right there could get you out of this sale if you needed it. also the "the body panels are all straight" statement is clearly not true.

at the very least, take the car to a solid mechanic and a body shop to be evaluated before handing over that $15k.

let us know how this turns out, 100mpg.
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galaxee · Jul 27, 2006

the problem with the OBDII scanner is that most of the toyota proprietary stuff won't show up. main concern: problems with the hybrid system will not show up. you need a toyota scanner to find that stuff.

find out exactly how $8k in repairs makes for a salvaged prius. that's what i wanna know.

my husband doesn't like the sound of the deal and suggests you either give the seller $10k for it (due to salvage title with potential issues) or back out. or find out for sure what the code is and that it's not going to be drastic trouble and make sure the car is in general good working order. (test EVERYTHING- doors, windows, anything you can think of)

many toyota dealers are open saturdays.

cagemo · Jul 28, 2006

you could just send the car to a local toyota dealer tomorrow (friday) for a pre-sale inspection and diagnosis. they will probably even pick it up if someone gets them a key. be straight up and tell them it's salvage repaired. any significant undisclosed negs they uncover are bargaining chips against price, so it will probably pay for itself. you've already got the fender to negotitate with.

ps: you may need the "before" pictures to title and register it in CA.

cwerdna · Jul 28, 2006

I too noticed some of the misalignments that galaxee pointed out and wasn't sure if they were within tolerance of what would come from the factory.

Unfortunately, you're generally obligated/bound to follow through after winning an auction on Ebay. I haven't read over the terms to see under what circumstances you can back out (I've never bought and sold on Ebay Motors, only the "regular" section of the site).

I hope the OP realized that the car will have NO WARRANTY other than the emissions warranty. The clause about salvage titles is in the warranty book. Overall, the seller and car sounds really sketchy.

Also use tips like http://www.carfax.com/car_buying/flood_damage_cars.cfm, http://www.autocheck.com/consumers/car-fac...flood-damage.do and http://www.autoextra.com/vehiclefloodtips.php to see if this car has had any flood damage. I saw a piece on Good Morning America where they intentionally submerged a car for ~30 minutes, had professionals clean it up (looked good at first) and then showed all the stuff that they weren't able to hide/clean.

IsrAmeriPrius · Jul 29, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ Jul 27 2006, 11:57 AM) [snapback]293331[/snapback]</div>

just to show you what i'm talking about-

correctly lined up fender. see circled areas- no jagged edges where parts meet.

incorrectly lined up fender. see circled areas- jagged edges. i found a few just glancing at it. definitely try to get that rectified.
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The hood appears to be misaligned.

bsoft · Jul 30, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ Jul 27 2006, 06:36 PM) [snapback]293533[/snapback]</div>

the problem with the OBDII scanner is that most of the toyota proprietary stuff won't show up. main concern: problems with the hybrid system will not show up. you need a toyota scanner to find that stuff.

find out exactly how $8k in repairs makes for a salvaged prius. that's what i wanna know.

my husband doesn't like the sound of the deal and suggests you either give the seller $10k for it (due to salvage title with potential issues) or back out. or find out for sure what the code is and that it's not going to be drastic trouble and make sure the car is in general good working order. (test EVERYTHING- doors, windows, anything you can think of)

many toyota dealers are open saturdays.
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Exactly - our Prius was hit on the front passenger side, and the repairs are totaling over $14k - yet our Prius will not be getting a "salvage title". It is my understanding that a salvage title only occurs when the repairs to a vehicle exceed the fair market value of the vehicle, which is considerably higher than $8k.

100MPG · Jul 31, 2006

i suspect a salvage title can also result from the insurance company deciding to liquidate the vehicle for other reasons than simply repair cost vs. FMV; for instance if the plaintif is antsy, and the insurance company is anxious to get them to sign a waiver of all liability, then the ins. co could agree to call it totalled and cough up the cash sooner, saving the client both time and the misery of knowing that their vehicle is thencefore impure.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bsoft @ Jul 30 2006, 02:45 AM) [snapback]294542[/snapback]</div>

Exactly - our Prius was hit on the front passenger side, and the repairs are totaling over $14k - yet our Prius will not be getting a "salvage title". It is my understanding that a salvage title only occurs when the repairs to a vehicle exceed the fair market value of the vehicle, which is considerably higher than $8k.
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100MPG · Jul 31, 2006

trip report:

he picked me up from the airport, then i drove. acceleration and handling were fine. i took it on the freeway and opened it up. felt like my 2004. tool my hands off the wheel; straight as an arrow. averaged 51 MPG across a wide swath of phoenix (i filled it up right at the airport to reset the cumulative MPG meter).

i plugged in a CAN-protocol OBD-II reader and got a single code: P0171 "system too lean". this suggested to me either a MAF sensor or oxygen sensor, so i wasn't too scared. it idle's a bit rough. everything else looked and worked fine, nav, SKS, windows, doors all fit perfectly, all lights, reverse, frame (as far as i could see without taking off the cowlings), steering wheel adjust, cruise control, etc. yes, that body panel that galaxee spotted is a bit off, but not in a way that bothers me.

ran fine all 750 miles home at 82 MPH (arizone) and 79 MPH (california), tho averaged low on MPG: 41.5, which i hope will improve when the P0171 is resolved. headlights need to be pointed a bit higher. i assume this is easy.

there were indeed receipts for the work by a toyota dealership (michael's toyota, in seattle) and a body shop (staten's, also in seattle). oddly, only $1500 for bodywork, compared to $12k at the toyota dealership! (might explain the sloppy body work). the engine must have been hit since a ridiculous number of parts got changed, including throttle body (which i didn't even think a prius had), 4 injectors, inverter (!), etc. there were the expected air bag, airbag sensors, seatbelts, etc., as well. he "managed" this process remotely not onsite to monitor), so he may have been taken for a ride by the dealer on a lot of this stuff. actually, the toyota work was all managed by the body shop, which would make me nervous.

FWIW, all the toyota work is waranteed by toyota for 6/12 months, labor/part (starting april-may of 06), repairable at any dealer.

he wouldn't budge on price, even when i delivered my bluff of taking my return flight. oh, well.

anyway, thanks for all your excellent and friendly support, and i will report back when i find out what's causing the P0171.

galaxee · Jul 31, 2006

P0171 comes with 13 pages of diagnostics in the repair manual... :blink: was the air-fuel ratio sensor (or A/F sensor) replaced in all that work, perchance?

cagemo · Jul 31, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(100MPG @ Jul 31 2006, 03:01 PM) [snapback]295355[/snapback]</div>

he wouldn't budge on price, even when i delivered my bluff of taking my return flight. oh, well. [/b]
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I bet he reads PriusChat B)

cwerdna · Aug 1, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(100MPG @ Jul 31 2006, 03:01 PM) [snapback]295355[/snapback]</div>

there were indeed receipts for the work by a toyota dealership (michael's toyota, in seattle) and a body shop (staten's, also in seattle). oddly, only $1500 for bodywork, compared to $12k at the toyota dealership! [/b]
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I'm familiar w/Michael's Toyota in Bellevue (had a little work done on my old 91 Camry after someone broke into it).

$1500 only for body work? That's weird! Just to get replace a rear bumper cover, have it painted, repair some minor body damage and replace an impact absorber after a very low speed accident (someone hit me) on my 06 Prius cost the other party's insurance >$1100.

It cost ~$900 to refinish and repaint the front bumper cover of my 350Z and replace a plastic scrape strip on the bottom of the bumper. This was after a car shipping company damaged it slightly during a move.

You've got balls to take such a car... hope it works out for you.

100MPG · Aug 1, 2006

there's a thin line between bravery and stupidity

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cwerdna @ Aug 1 2006, 01:23 AM) [snapback]295575[/snapback]</div>

I'm familiar w/Michael's Toyota in Bellevue (had a little work done on my old 91 Camry after someone broke into it).

$1500 only for body work? That's weird! Just to get replace a rear bumper cover, have it painted, repair some minor body damage and replace an impact absorber after a very low speed accident (someone hit me) on my 06 Prius cost the other party's insurance >$1100.

It cost ~$900 to refinish and repaint the front bumper cover of my 350Z and replace a plastic scrape strip on the bottom of the bumper. This was after a car shipping company damaged it slightly during a move.

You've got balls to take such a car... hope it works out for you.
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is that toyota part number 89170-47380 ? the description is truncated as "SENSOR ASSY, AI"

i'm going to go home tonight and swap some sensors between this new prius and my '04 to see if any of them make the P0171 go away.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ Jul 31 2006, 05:50 PM) [snapback]295376[/snapback]</div>

P0171 comes with 13 pages of diagnostics in the repair manual... :blink: was the air-fuel ratio sensor (or A/F sensor) replaced in all that work, perchance?
[/b]
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is that toyota part number 89170-47380 ? the description is truncated as "SENSOR ASSY, AI"

i'm going to go home tonight and swap some sensors between this new prius and my '04 to see if any of them make the P0171 go away.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ Jul 31 2006, 05:50 PM) [snapback]295376[/snapback]</div>

P0171 comes with 13 pages of diagnostics in the repair manual... :blink: was the air-fuel ratio sensor (or A/F sensor) replaced in all that work, perchance?
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galaxee · Aug 1, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(100MPG @ Aug 1 2006, 08:33 PM) [snapback]295982[/snapback]</div>

is that toyota part number 89170-47380 ? the description is truncated as "SENSOR ASSY, AI"

i'm going to go home tonight and swap some sensors between this new prius and my '04 to see if any of them make the P0171 go away.
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hmm- could be the a/f ratio sensor... he's going to have his parts guy look up the part number.

this sensor is in the exhaust pipe... can't remember if it's in the manifold or in the down pipe with the cat.

be careful, these guys occasionally bind when you try to take them out. this is a *very bad* thing. you're going to have to get under the car to get to it so be sure to stay safe.

100MPG · Aug 2, 2006

wow, those sensors are hard to reach without a hoist, or at least some high axle jacks.

looking at the manual, seems like the smart way to do this is simply read out the values of the sensor outputs with a scanner -- why use a wrench and voltmeter when i can just use a computer? what sort of scanner do i need for this? is it the same kind that people on this forum are using to read out main-battery amps and such? how expensive? where to get?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ Aug 1 2006, 09:32 PM) [snapback]296036[/snapback]</div>

hmm- could be the a/f ratio sensor... he's going to have his parts guy look up the part number.

this sensor is in the exhaust pipe... can't remember if it's in the manifold or in the down pipe with the cat.

be careful, these guys occasionally bind when you try to take them out. this is a *very bad* thing. you're going to have to get under the car to get to it so be sure to stay safe.
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galaxee · Aug 2, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(100MPG @ Aug 2 2006, 09:54 AM) [snapback]296229[/snapback]</div>

wow, those sensors are hard to reach without a hoist, or at least some high axle jacks.

looking at the manual, seems like the smart way to do this is simply read out the values of the sensor outputs with a scanner -- why use a wrench and voltmeter when i can just use a computer? what sort of scanner do i need for this? is it the same kind that people on this forum are using to read out main-battery amps and such? how expensive? where to get?

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hmm- as far as we know the CAN-view doesn't show those parameters, but Norm may have found and added them since we last asked about it.

there's a multimeter here that should do the trick- select a distributor from their link. the distributor we found prices it at $283. of course, then you need the EWD book so you can go straight to the wire. this isn't an OBDII scanner... we don't know what a generic will do (like a Matco or soemthing) since he works with the toyota scantool all the time. may or may not show these parameters and cost is highly variable.

if you've got a friend at the dealership, the scantool shows all these things through the DLC3 connector. if you don't have a friend at the dealer, it'll probably be in the $40 range for diag. but, it may be more depending on the dealer.

100MPG · Aug 4, 2006

city toyota (daly city, CA) charged me $125 for diagnostics (grumble). result, as you predicted:
89467-47010 air-fuel ratio sensor

wife talked me out of doing it myself this weekend (she is generally wiser than i). thus:
$341 for parts + labor.

hope that's all. they say they tested all the other sensors related to a P0171, and all appeared fine.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ Aug 2 2006, 09:53 PM) [snapback]296746[/snapback]</div>

hmm- as far as we know the CAN-view doesn't show those parameters, but Norm may have found and added them since we last asked about it.

there's a multimeter here that should do the trick- select a distributor from their link. the distributor we found prices it at $283. of course, then you need the EWD book so you can go straight to the wire. this isn't an OBDII scanner... we don't know what a generic will do (like a Matco or soemthing) since he works with the toyota scantool all the time. may or may not show these parameters and cost is highly variable.

if you've got a friend at the dealership, the scantool shows all these things through the DLC3 connector. if you don't have a friend at the dealer, it'll probably be in the $40 range for diag. but, it may be more depending on the dealer.
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