Chevrolet Volt tops Sierra Club ranking of plug-in hybrids

Forever?

 

No ... just 'till the gub'ment can no longer affort to subsidize fuel from $7/hr down to $4/hr.

.

 

2013 Chevrolet Volt Range Extending EV/Plug In Hybrid In-depth review
.... the truth about cars - Published on Jul 12, 2013

.
Difficult for plug-in hybrids to be a good EV/good hybrid(fuel efficiency) at the same time.

 

Did that taskforce forget that there was a recession, and the entire enconomy slowed down. The reorganization itself was going to take time. This isn't SimsGM where a click of the mouse has instantaneous effect.

Car generations generally follow a 5 year cycle. The Volt is only halfway through its, and got improved range and EV efficiency with its refresh. How many cars get efficiency improvements during a refresh without offering anew engine and/or transmissions. The only one I know of was with the InsightII.

How do you know there isn't a plan? Because they aren't sharing. Maybe with responses like OPUD they felt sharing was pointless. Why is it good business sense for Toyota to be tight lipped and not GM?

Seeing how eAssist is a second generation BAS, claiming it didn't go beyond its initial roll out is a bit disingenuous. As has been pointed out, the problem with GM's fuel efficiency is that they make heavy cars. They still get good numbers despite that, and the company knows they need to shed weight on car models. But no company is going to retool the line of a car in the middle of its production cycle for weight reduction advances. They'll do it with the redesign, which can be 5 years.

Why doesn't a hybrid fit? VW offers a gasoline, diesel, and hybrid Jetta now.

At the current rate of sales, the $7500 credit can last out past 9 years for some manufacturers. It will expire sooner for GM with the Volt's sales, but it should last past the refresh of the second generation Volt.

And Toyota is competing with itself, or would not the majority of Camry, Avalon, and Highlander hybrid buyers get the conventional model instead? Same with the PPI.

 

So... you agree that the goal posts have been moved... but don't state where they are now... not setting goals is a red flag... there are serious financial consequences.

Penetration is vital No amount of spin or labeling will change that reality. 60,000 per year is the mainstream minimum, which is well under the 5,000 per month rate the from the top automakers.

We see Toyota's shift from tradition to hybrid going well. The Prius family is holding strong and the other offerings proving larger more powerful systems are quite realistic. Ford is following in those same footsteps. Honda is hoping for that too. But with GM, there isn't anything. That gap between Cruze and Volt is enormous, with nothing but blind hope that a huge cost reduction will be achieved in just 2 more years. And of course, that still leaves those without access to a plug stuck with Cruze.

What must that next Volt offer to quickly become a high-volume seller?

 

Can you provide a citation for that "too little too slowly" being about GM. The only place I can find that prhase associated with GM (other than your rantings) it with respect to the bailout was
http://beta.congress.gov/crec/2008/10/01/CREC-2008-10-01.pdf
Where it is used to discuss the need for congress to move and that it was doing too little to slowly to help the economy. Where was it uses as you suggest, that it is GM that was doing too little.

How about facts not FUD?


BAS I was a bit of a stop-gap and was upgraded/replaced with eAssist. Such upgrades/transitions are common as product grow. eAssist is better and was only release in 2012 so its still in rollout mode. It is on track to sell about 30K units this year, which alone would put GM 3rd in hybrid sales, even without the volt. So why does GM need to have a any other hybrid offering? Who cares if its a hybrid.. I only care what they do for fuel efficiency.


Its not a competition with traditional vehicles, its about reducing fuel usage any way you can get people to buy efficency. A Diesel Cruze gets better mileage than most hybrids, including various toyota and lexus hybrids. Cruze eco gets much better milage than Camery or Corolla or .. With what GM's doing to improve its ICE lineup, it is already moving forward into what used to be hybrid territory.

The market rejected two-mode, in large part because of its image and it died because new ICE technology such as direct injection and cylinder deactivation allowed ford, and now GM, to offer SUV/trucks with towing ability and similar MPG but at lower cost. Hybrids with real towing power just too expensive and that market segment won't pay the premium. In a similar way, multiple companies worked on small pickups which also have died. Innovative companies develop new ideas and move them forward and test the market. Some times they are a hit (like the SUV, minivan, prius) sometimes they fail (two-mode, insight). Its impossible to predict "new market" innovations. When it comes to innovation. Do, or do not; there is no try.


If GM made a 47MPG hybrid, would prius users switch? I think not many. Would ICE users switch? A few maybe. GM bet against hybrids and failed. Hard to take on the market leader in that segment and win. Why invest hard in a lossing approach when you can invest in the next wave. Volt and sparc are about the next generation, what is already becoming a disruptive new market segment -- a segment where GM is now a market leader.

 

How about we wait and see for the next generation Volt then? That is what it took for the Prius. It isn't like we are all doomed if GM doesn't produce a Prius like hybrid. I don't think GM is even doomed if they don't. Hybrid isn't the sole solution.

I don't know, or even care, what GM's overall goals are. I find the Volt intriguing, and hope it does 'take off'. I do know every manufacturer has to face up to the rising CAFE standards. From the few news reports I've seen, GM appears to be taking steps to address this. They just aren't the steps you want them to take.

 

Scholars have pointed out that we have lost their way, transforming from leaders to followers.

We use to pride ourselves in our proactive stance. Now, we wait to react instead.

That's really sad.

 

Such an interesting comment.
Here GM is, producing a different way of saving gas that the standard hybrid. Attempting to take a proactive stance, long overdue.

Meanwhile, Toyota is dragging their feet, doing the least amount they can get by with, waiting to see what happens when they used to be leaders.

 

Its silly for you to keep asking people outside of GM to tell you GM's goals. GM is showing leadership by NOT following down the hybrid path but blazing a new path forward with a vehicle line that uses much less gas. GM does not have to tell everyone what's next, until it releases the products.

What't toyota up to.. raking in profits on their past insight and maybe following along. Maybe they are trying to blaze a FCV trail, but I just don't see any breakthroughs there in the next decade. What are Toyota's goals in Plugins? EVs? Is toyota the follower now?

Its silly for you to keep asking people outside of GM to tell you GM's goals. We can only tell you our goals and what we will do. Some of us chose to be proactive and chose to pay a little more to get car that uses less gas than a prius or even a plug-in prius. (With current deals the price differential is pretty much gone so it is showing less "leadership" to buy a Volt.)

Some of us are proactive and us choose to lead by example. I'm driving mostly on renewable energy.. how about you? You've burned more gas this year than I did in the past 18 months.

I am also leading by proactively working to reduce/stop the misinformation being bandied about. Others, like you, wallow around casting doubts and throwing FUD.


Back to the thread. Sierra club, a leading environmental organization, recognized the Volt as the best Plug-in. Years ago such groups were attacking GM. How is that not a sign of turnaround and true leadership at GM?

 

That's why I keep asking what's next, what their goals are.

After all, GM hasn't matched consumer need... our goals.

They pushed Prius V, Prius C, and Prius PHV all out the door at the same time.

How is that considered dragging, especially since PHV was a mid-cycle release?

 

You keep saying that. But the Volt met the needs of this former Prius owner (x2). And they are meeting the needs of 10s of thousands of other drivers. Just how short a period of time do you require the Volt to reach your 60,000 units/year number?

The Prius C and V have no advances in tech. They are wonderful additions to the Prius family, but are simple body style changes.
The PiP has potential, but certainly didn't meet my family's needs, and apparently not many other people's needs.
At least, Toyota seems to think so as they refuse to roll out the sales except in unofficial ways.

 

That you keep asking us about GM's goals just shows your arrogance and is a blatant attempt to raise doubts because you have nothing meaningful to actually say. I can tell you one of GMs publicly stated goals, reducing the cost of the Volt in Gen II. Since price is your major complain, that should be a sufficient goal.

Maybe in your mind.. GM has matched many consumers needs/goals. Maybe that is why the Volt is the best selling PHEV and best selling plugin in the country. And GM's sparc is priced to meet the needs of customers that have a lower income.

I agree with Zythryn said the V is just a body styling; PHV is just a bigger battery. The C is a bit of body styling but a bit more expensive reenginering to reduce costs; still it was minimal new tech and minimal reduction in fuel usage.

The PHV was only mid-cycle because Toyota was asleep at the wheel; with customers asking for and eventually building kits for Gen II prius; leadership would have been to launch the PHV with Gen III, or at least with the enhancements in 2011.. instead it was following new leader and going very slowly so it did not get out the PHV until Spring 2012.. The PHV is clearly "too little too slowly. "

 

Reduced cost is advancement! C delivered that. C also is much more than a body change, since the engine, motor, and battery are all different.

V delivered a larger platform, one capable of supporting the more powerful system in Camry and/or more battery capacity. That too is advancement.

If neither of those qualify, we have to question what the heck Volt is attempting to achieve next... since supposedly, both of those aspects are among the list of what GM intended to deliver.

Also, let's not overlook the advancement in PHV... the upgrade to a Li-Ion battery, rather the standard NiMH.

 

Minor advancement. Heck, third party companies were offering similar solutions years before Toyota gave us the PHV.

The PHV platform is new for Toyota, but not so much for the rest of the world.
And it is a perfect solution for some. But it is is limited.
As you have said yourself, it is a minor change from the Prius. Which works great for a mid generation advance at let Toyota leverage the world leading tech of the Prius.

Unfortunately taking the easy way out with minor incremental advances isn't a good way to keep the innovation lead.

There is nothing wrong with that. You can applaud Toyota for delivering millions of fantastic, gas saving cars over the years. I know I do.
But I certainly won't applaud them for leadership and innovation when they aren't showing either.

 

Since we've already been through all this and already pointed out that Toyota is developing a dedicated plug-in platform to add to its product-line along with Prius, I don't see any need to play the repeat posting game...

<unwatch>

 

What? We are just a bunch of schlubs on the internet. We aren't GM, you aren't going to get more than 'wait and see' on GM's plans, because none of us knows. That has no bearing on whether GM itself is a leader or follower.

As to GM, they were the first in variable displacement engines, and they have been expanding it's use.

The Volt is the first commercial PHV to market, and first EREV. In the 3 years it has been available, changes in battery chemistry as improved the electric range and efficiency without a price increase, and the price has recently dropped. GM also expanded the technology to the ELR.

In the first 6 years of the Prius, how many models had the THS?

The Prius PHV didn't arrive until mid cycle of the gen3. Third party companies have already been making gen2 and gen3 conversions for years. Some of which could be consider better than Toyota's offering. Uses lithium ion batteries. So does the 7 seater Prius v, and the Hyundai hybrids, and the Ford hybrids, and the new Accord hybrid, and nearly every other hybrid, plug in or not, now available.

The Prius v is a wagon version of the Prius. We never celebrated the release of a wagon, or convertible, or coupe version of a traditional car as a break through in technology. Neither should we do so with hybrids.

The Prius C costs as much as the Insight2, which has been out longer. Most of the talk around here at the Insight2 release was that the price was higher than expected. The Fit hybrid also came out around the same time as the Insight. The engine, motor, and battery are different in order to reduce cost. The most changed is the engine, but it is just the one from the gen2, augmented with advances in the gen3.

Toyota hit a home run with the Prius and have been milking it ever since. Not that they don't deserve to. It is a good system, and they have been improving on it. They just haven't done anything ground breaking since. It seems to be their usual SOP.

Look at the Corolla. The automatic transmission is basically the same one since they introduced the 4 speed in the '80s. Still can only get a 4 speed in the Corolla while all its competitors have a more efficient 6 speed or CVT. Instead of leading in development and implementation, they follow. A new more efficient transmission will be available in the new 2014 Corolla. But you have to upgrade for it. Otherwise you get the same old 4 speed.

Without the PNGV program to get them worried, Toyota may not have even developed the Prius.

 

That's nice. I have already asked you multiple times on when the proposed release date for this PHV is, and I guess I'll never get that answer.

 

He is probably referring to the NS4 which was a concept car in 2012 (Which I think they did so they did not too lame with just the PiP). The original press release said

So many seem to expect it for 2015. Even thought that was NOT what was stated.

But a concept is a far cry from production and if it was scheduled for 2015 one would think we'd have heard about it formally but you never know for sure.

But I've yet to see (and searched at toyota) an actual press-release saying its moving into production. The autonews from the show where it debuted doubted it would be production
Toyota NS4 Advanced Plug-In Hybrid Concept &#8211; News &#8211; Car and Driver

A whole thread on it at
2015 Toyota NS4 Advanced Plug-In Updates, Photos &amp; Videos! | PriusChat
where someone is saying its schedule to be produced but I still cannot find where that is from.

 

...somewhere around 2003 I got sold on the hybrid idea, but was waiting for Camry hybrid which was always coming out the next year, then the next year...etc etc It is frustrating waiting the years, but I do not consider Toyota lagging anyone. GM did grab a nice place in the plug-in space with Volt. Perhaps we all need to focus on living a healthy lifestyle so we can still be here in 10-15 yrs when the cars we all want finally materialize.