Chevrolet Volt tops Sierra Club ranking of plug-in hybrids

Since the promise was 2010, based on their extensive experience already with motors & batteries prior to Volt rollout, the next generation must deliver.

Notice how goals are now extremely vague? That should be a concern. We shouldn't just blindly hope for the best.

What should that next model deliver?

 

I thought the problem was low sales of the prius phv. It seems to sell much worse than the volt, tesla, and leaf.

What is the goal for the prius phv? Are you saying its vague? I really don't understand all this volt talk.

 

Bragging rights: Low vs. lower! an average of 1432 Volts the first 5 months for more than 3,000 Chevy dealers is low while PIP is lower. Volt should see good sales numbers this month/good price on a volt now.
April 2013 Chevrolet Volt Sales Fairly Flat With 1,306 Sold, As Inventory Continues To Grow

 

The inventory listed on cars.com doesn't support the hope for good sales. From 9,200 to 8,000 is a drop, despite the $4k price drop.

With lithium cost coming down, increased availability, growing popularity of the Prius family, and local production, the PHV model can be competitive & profitable even without a design change or generation upgrade... quite unlike the approach GM took and apparently will continue to.

Trophies don't accomplish much. Sales goals have been stated by Toyota. What are GM's plans?

 

I wasn't doing bragging rights, just defending the sierra club. John1701a seems to think that the prius phv with low sales, is more mainstream than the volt, because, of I don't know wish craft or something. Both cars sell to initial adopters. Neither is doing as well as the tesla S in a dollar volume, unit volume, or profitability. I'm not so sure chevy will sell many more volts in June, model year change overs are tricky. I do expect sales to brighten up at the end of the year, as they did last year, with a large percentage increase.

The windbag charge of the volt battery is too big to be mainstream falls on my deaf ears. These are first gen cars, and the tesla S seems to show that the problem for the volt may not be that it is too expensive, it could be that it could be a better car with better dealer support. Both GM and Nissan have talked about having trouble with their dealers. Toyota seems to have trouble with corporate marketing, keeping it out of some good plug-in sales states, and running their mouths about how batteries are not ready.

The take rate of the prius phv in the US and Japan are far bellow the stated sales goals of toyota. The sales in Japan are especially disappointing. Again, why does 5th place plug-in automaker in Toyota, and sales far short of goals, make the prius phv a winner. Perhaps if Corporate Toyota would stop promoting fuel cell futures against the car, and invest in a bigger battery pack they could turn this around.

Don't sales figures mean anything to you John1701a? Why would the current prius phv design sell better in the future with more competition?

Is it just wishful thinking, or some other lack of critical reasoning? I would expect if the prius phv is successful in the future it will need to have a higher power battery pack.

 

Why do you continue to ask questions several of us have already provided answers for?

That's obvious too, since that has already been posted as well.

 

I am asking because that is the question you continously ask about gm and the volt. Yet your answer doesn't seem to satisfy any logic between the two cars.

Again. I await your answers.

If the prius phv does not sell well now with its discounting, why would it sell better in the future with more competition?

If the prius phv is more mainstream than say the volt, and your definition of mainstream is sales unit volume, why is the unit volume lower? If it is unit volume for the car line, why is it more mainstream than the accord phev or fusion energi?

Do you honestly think toyota will keep the battery size this small in the prius phv, despite all the marketing data? Why would that help profitability? I disallow answers like becasuse the US government will pay less for tax credits.

Please no more vague sniping. Answer coherantly, and I will answer your questions. Again no one on this board works for GM, but many of us understand cars.

For your actual sales you can look here
May 2013 Dashboard - HybridCars.com
where the prius phv sold 3630 through the first 5 months of 2013. This is less than it sold last year ytd, even though the prius phv was not available at the beginning of 2012, representing a lower run rate. The tesla S is selling more than twice as fast even though it costs much more.

We also have the toyota discounting and sales hopes that it is not acheiving this year.
Toyota Looks To Keep 2013 Prius Plug-In Sales On Pace With 2012. Kinda. Not Really.

 

I think companies may not want to sell a lot of plug-ins right now and lose more money on each one they sell. These sales numbers have more to do with msrp, and with the public who is not into cars running on electricity just yet.

 

+1

Tesla is selling every one they can make. They need to maintain quality, and can't if they speed up production. They are also profitable.

Nissan has over invested, and lost a big chunk of money, and has cut prices to keep the factories running. I don't think anyone can look at the MSRP after tax and think they are not being aggressive. They did not handle the battery capacity loss in arizona well. Battery questions, looks, and Range seem to be holding the leaf back, but it is doing much better with the update and lower prices. They likely are making variable profits on each car, but aren't going to come close to paying off R&D or Fixed costs.

GM likely is doing exactly as you are saying, leasing it at a price where it does not lose much money. They are paying off some R&D and fixed costs, but gm isn't going to match the lower prices and reduce profitability. They need to drop costs in the next generation, but that is likely.

Toyota marketing for the phv looks like it could have been run better by a college student. They seemed to target the japanese market, but they did not want to buy. Rollout to CARB states instead of good plug-in states has them heavily discounting on the east coast, and having very low sales. Perhaps they are just waiting for the next generation for relaunch. Toyota had a huge lead, as people were already converting genIIs to plug-ins in the aftermarket, but seems to not really want to sell a car with a plug. I hope this changes with the next generation.

Ford seems to be trying a fast follower strategy. They are pricing the fusion energi high, and don't expect to sell many, the c-max energi seems to have gotten hurt by mpg advertising games. Ford seems to be trying to just learn on the first generation and not lose much money. They at least appear serious, and put a suitable sized battery in the energi, and a national roll out.


Nissan seems to be the big loser in this game, Tesla the big winner. Ford and Toyota look to be treading water waiting to see if there is a market.

Toyota at the roll out
2012 Toyota Prius Plug-in Hybrid Review - HybridCars.com

 

Unfair plugin tax credit, "incompatibility" with the EPA test and probably bad marketing.

For a midsize plugin that emits the least emission (tailpipe and beyond) and contains the efficiency of Leaf EV in the city and 50 MPG Prius on the highway (in one package), $2,500 tax credit is very low. If PiP qualifies the same $7,500 tax credit as the Volt, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

There are 3 ways to cut down the gas consumption for a plugin hybrid. 1) Bigger battery. 2) More efficient gas engine. 3) Raise the efficiency of both EV and HV miles (synergy). Tax credit was structured around #1, which is maxed out at Volt's battery size. #2 and #3 were completely ignored which puts PiP at disadvantage.

EPA does not rate Prius PHV the way it was intended to use -- EV in the city and Gas on the highway. EPA runs the electric on both city and highway cycle and the repeats for gas operation.

PiP is unable to complete the highway cycle on EV alone so the 95 MPGe was a dragged down number by gas. AER (continuous all electric range) was also given as 6 miles. I think EPA should count the remaining EV miles when the gas engine shuts down later in the cycle.

I use EV mode in the city traffic and get 11-13 miles at 132 MPGe. I use the gas engine for the highway and gets 54 MPG. It doesn't have to be city or highway. The key is to pick the driving condition where EV shines and vice versa. It is fun to drive as I have the control of picking each fuel at various driving conditions, similar to driving a manual. I am constantly thinking which fuel (gear) I want to use (be in).

PiP concept is too different for EPA test to handle but it really is a simple concept. Use the low energy density fuel (expensive and heavy) battery for short frequent trips. Use the high density fuel (gasoline) for longer trips.

For what you like, I think Volt is a better fit for you. And that makes you happy so, I hope you keep it for 6-7 years or even longer, like you did with Gen2 Prius.

 

Tax credits do not last but the hardware lasts a lot longer. The owners pay the freight long after the tax credits are no more than a brief memory.

Bob Wilson

 

Wow do you want some cheese with that Whine?

Toyota was in the room when they wrote the tax credit. The government wanted them to have a bigger battery and more electric miles, but they fought and got it reduced to get a credit. Now you think its too low. Toyota could have followed what the government wanted and used a bigger battery. Instead they still get corporate welfare in ca$h4clunukers in spite of putting jobs in japan.

Why are you still whining about the rules, that toyota helped construct is unfair to toyota. Give me a break. If Toyota had put a bigger battery in the car it would have a bigger incentive.

Funny, if this tax credit works price of batteries will drop, and there will be no need for it in the future.

The prius also had tax credits to help toyota develop it. Between MITI and US government credits, there should not be any doubt that the governments have tried to incubate hybrid technology. I'm convinced that hybrid development was helped by credits and subsidies.

 

Are you advocating that GM not make a profit?

DBCassidy

The way GM used the Volt to get the bailout from Congress, even before one production model of the Volt was ever built.

That, is one pretty slick way of doing business using taxpayers' money,

DBCassidy

 

We went from being "vastly superior" to direct comparisons of plug-in hybrid with more seating & cargo room, greater efficiency following depletion, nearly a quarter the battery-capacity, a third the tax-credit, and only available in a third the states. It wasn't too long ago that a few outspoken Volt enthusiasts had described it as "pathetic". Things have undeniably changed. Reality of business need has become difficult to avoid. The mighty have fallen.

We all know middle-market consumers don't have purchase priorities that match what Volt has delivered but do match Prius PHV. That's an ugly fact that caused some to insist we now wait for the next generation and hope for the best with nothing but vague claims that cost will drop substantially and configuration will not be compromised. How is such feat possible, especially without the competition also achieving similar results?

It doesn't add up. It's time to get serious. The rhetoric isn't getting any traction anymore. Inventory piling up without a plan "B" available is putting a lot of pressure on Volt. There isn't a smaller capacity or a non-plug model to offset. It's a one-size-fits-all gamble that hasn't been paying off. Enthusiasts can argue that point all they want, but it falls on deaf ears... since that only confirms what we had been saying even before rollout began.

GM must offer something for the masses that's profitable and doesn't depend on tax-credits. It's essential those requirements are met. Good luck with that next generation.

 

GM and the Volt are at the crossroads: sink or swim. What is being noticed in the Sunday automotive ads, Chevy dealers are burying the Volt within their other profit making line.
Its' not that the dealers have stopped Volt advertising, but a pronounced reduction in promoting the Volt.

DBCassidy

 

Could you tell us who you are quoting? Or answer my direct questions with a direct answer?
This is a Sierra Club evaluation, and yes they thought the volt was superior to the prius phv. From the sales figures, consumers also find it superior.

Toyota is getting a much bigger tax credit per kwh than tesla or nissan. They helped write the bill that got them the tax credit, so they certainly knew the rules. Who is limiting Toyota to CARB states? Its Toyota! The top 15 states should sell about 90% of the plug-ins, but Toyota explicitly has chosen not to have the car available in many of those states, and chooses others instead.

You make the claim that the prius phv is mass market today. I have said from the start that these cars are for initial adopters. Where are the sales for the prius phv that you promised us

What is all this gobblygook about? Please give me a straight answer.

Toyota gets plenty of tax breaks, why the prius was well incubated by miti. Why do plug ins have to spring up after 2 years and get many times the sales of the initial prius. It is all baffling john. The toyota truck plant got huge subsidies from the US government, and simply moved production from higher priced places like california to texas.

Where are your prius phv sales? Would they even be lower without the tax credit? Would they be higher if people had more of a range with more of an ev experience? The prius phv needs a re do with a bigger battery.

 

Don't expect straight answers or actual quotes from some people, they seem to have selective memory at best and just make things up when its useful to support weak logic.

There were some people calling the PiP "pathetic", such as
What would doubling the EV range be worth in a new PIP? | Page 2 | PriusChat
Which Plug-in Is Best For You | Page 2 | PriusChat

But then again those were from Prius owners..

But John1701 does have a point. The reality of business need has become difficult to avoid, its hard to not notice that PiP sales are well off the Toyota "goals". And also hard to note that TMC had fallen from the "quality" leader to middle of the pack even producing the scions's (dead last in JD Power initial quality) while GM has risen to JD Powers top rated manufacture in its initial quality with Chevy at #5 with Toyota brand down at #7. And the Volt is much higher rated by CR and US News than any Toyota. Yes the mighty (TMC) have fallen a bit.

The Prius is still a good line; still time for Toyota to turn itself around, but the clock is ticking.

 

Tesla does not have plan B. All its production is EV, 2 models only in its line up. Engineering is focused exclusively on that. Quality and price high, Tesla is not "mainstream".
And it is a small company, at least compared to a GM, Nissan or Toyota.

Profit comes from sales, but also from good organization and leadership. Let hope it makes a strong company for the future, and shares confidence for EV market.

 

Regardless of what I post, it just ends up being twisted. The pattern is easy to see. I'm done playing the game.

It's overwhelming clear that Volt does not match consumer needs. No effort to divert attention will change that.

 

If it truly didn't match the needs of its consumers, it would not be selling at all.

You want us to give you what GM's future plans are with the Volt.

What are Toyota's plans with plug ins? A few were willing to import a PPI from a state that was selling them. So there is some demand for them in the non release states. Why delay the national roll out? The Energis, with obvious cargo compromises appear to be on track to be more popular than the PPI. Any word from Toyota on a longer EV range model to compete with them and the Volt? Will you demand Toyota to open up like you do of GM?