Chevy stops Volt production (temporarily ...)

With respect to announcing 10.4kwH By a few days before release I presume you mean like 8 months,
Op-Ed: Forecasting Future Demand For the Volt
FuturePundit: Chevy Volt Batteries In Cold Weather
At least some were projecting 10.4 much earlier

In comparison, when did Toyota announce the useable kWh in the USA PiP? When did Nissan announce the usable kWh in the Leaf?


With respect to the Volt being a Prius copy, if it was, it was be like a PHV with limited range and power or a Ford. The Volt turned the epicyclic model upside down, made the traction motor the primary EV motor, made it so it could be all EV and not power limited. The prius was based on the TRW design, and Volt has more in common with the original TRW design than with which was also the basis for the Prius HSD design.

I do agree that GM as a company has some serious issues, but lets keep the facts straight.

 

Sticking to facts by not falling for the MPG bragging is badmouthing? Whatever. Fortunately, the rest of us are well aware that Volt accomplishes those results by using nearly 4 times the battery capacity, making it unable to reach middle-market consumers.

COST is quite different from PRICE. The misrepresentation of tax-credits, especially when saying the same but not mentioning one is $2,500 and the other $7,500, is greenwashing. Fortunately, the rest of us are well aware of that. So simply sticking to COST works.

 

OK

Lyle spills the beans on Oct 26/2010

 

Sorry to interrupt the finger-pointing, but I have a question to ask about the mileage (fuel economy) represented by the picture. I don't know much about the Volt, but the numbers show 3724.3 miles on 66.5 gallons of gas, for FE of 56.0 MPG. Is there another aspect to this I'm missing (meaning, I suppose: are there additional EV miles not counted as part of the odometer info?)?

I'm not trying to diss you, the Volt or anyone else on the thread, but these are numbers I hit (and exceeded) on my Gen II for long road trips. My Gen III (heavier, better and with 17" wheels and wide tires) also will do this on long road trips. If the real difference comes from the local use, where everything is done on EV, then that's where there are some significant differences and a place where my car cannot compete. For the real road warrior, then, the additional cost of the Volt (along with smaller interior space) may not justify the purchase, but for someone with many more local miles and only the occasional trip, I imagine the benefit goes to the Volt if there are enough local miles to offset the cost difference. Of course, this observation takes into account only household finances, not world economies.

 

What do you think 38 ev miles and 35/40/37 is mpg bragging? Those seem like facts. Your over 100 mpg on the phv, is really good, but you forgot YMMV and your results are not typical. Things are larger than they appear in the mirror.

Yes, I suppose the prius phv can not reach middle market consumers. But bless its heart, toyota is trying. Its simply too expensive for its small battery to sell as well as the volt.

Are those the facts you mean?

Now who is playing fast and loose with the facts. Cost is what it costs the consumer. Since toyota got the rules to support a smaller battery than congress wanted, you can't go crying that if only that mean old government would give toyota more money for not moving prius production to america and giving us too few ev miles it would be much more fair. Give me a break. Your crying is hollow and insulting. Toyota knew the rules. They helped write them. They have a political machine trying to get money from governments.

Toyota sold the original prius with government money both japanese and american. Its a sucess story of government sponsoring technology. I suppose you want to take your time machine back and kill the prius since it was selling way bellow the costs of production to toyota. If you don't agree that innovative technology should be supported, cry about it on another thread. If you don't think the volt improving the battery in the 2013my on sale now, you aren't paying attention.

If you want to follow the lines of Mike Kelly and Fox news that you would rather subsidize oil and imported cars than plug ins, I can't really help you. But please don't insult our intellegence and claim that battery technology has stagnated at 2010 levels, or that taking government money is unfair. Toyota has taken a great deal of government money. Your shrill arguments are hollow. What is your next line? If we raise individual tax rates on people making over $1M, that it will kill small business We have a toyota plant about 80 miles away, I know it was built with the help of federal money.

 

Okay, I guess Lyle was surprised, does not mean those paying attention did not feel it was going to be 10.4kWh based on earlier data. I did not find any official "GM statement" defining it would be 8, just lots of rumors . Lots of "expected 8kWh" etc.. I expect 10.4 back in 2009 when I was decideing if I should wait or not.

And, FWIW in good weather, I do get 40miles on 8kWh regularly, and on a simple test like where the Nissan leaf got 100, the Volt would hit that mark. Most spring/summer/fall days I only use about 7 unless I run errands. But when I did my analysis I also wanted to project winter driving needs where I really need the 10.4.

You are holding it against a a company for publically stating goals and not quite making them, compared to companies that don't publicly state any goals. I'd rather have GM's "over-promise and under-delivered" Volt, than the last decade of Toyota "don't say anything until the last minute, and then under-deliver with respect to people expectations " where they have had no innovations and only minor increments.

 

It certainly doesn't consider or factor in the true cost of "cheap" oil; both in subsidized tax dollars and human lives.

 

If that is the way you feel, then please present your COST facts, or stop talking about things you don't know. What does it cost to make a Volt, and what are your sources. What does it cost to make a PiP?

Yes, we are all aware the volt get better overall efficiency results by using 4x the battery. Toyota could have, should have, had a 40mile PHEV in 2009 and I'd be driving it now. But they sat on their laurels.

Talking about the price to the consumer is a price FACT. Its not green washing. The manufacture all knew the incentive model before they chose what car to make. The incentives are about trying to support a new direction for the auto-industry that initially has higher costs and providing a per-car incentive model (as upposed to the prior failed attempts with R&D funding for joint initiatives that never turn into products). That more efficient models get more incentive is both intuitive and fair.

 

That is, as the post you cite says, was from a 3700 mile trip. Its just showing that on a long trip the Volt can do fine in overall MPG.. I cannot say what wolfman's overall stats are but in this post
Chevy stops Volt production (temporarily ...) | Page 5 | PriusChat
I shared my stats since last october. Overall 476MPG in 7600 miles. and 100.5MPGe including the electricity.

 

I take it you haven't been reading up on Nissan's battery woes?

They upped the available capacity again for 2013. Why is it that when GM does this, it is bad, but if Toyota or any other EV maker does the same, it is bad? In my real world driving, my WORST distance from full to empty was 42 miles. It was a 100 degree day with the A/C going on full blast, AND an overall uphill drive. My car has been showing 48 - 50 miles available on the battery at full charge ever since I got home from this trip.

Said by someone who has never driven the car. Beyond the overall profile which is what comes out of a wind tunnel given the drag numbers the engineers are going for, this car cannot possibly compare to a Prius. Even the PIP does not compare - which BTW, was Toyota's response to GM announcing the production of the Volt.

As for defending GM, I'll take cars with cheap plasticky interiors over vehicles that randomly accelerate out of control, killing its occupants in the process any day of the week.

 

Your trip was powered by fairy dust?

Where does it say how much fuel (electricity) you consumed? Without that information, how can we make of it?

 

The most recent data shows the grid is about 5% cleaner. Those numbers would change but not significant.

 

The miles driven includes the EV miles. The screen on the middle stack shows electric consumption. It resets at every charge, and I did not log that data.

 

I disagree. This is not limited to EV owners. A regular Prius owner can buy green creds (renewable) and choose to switch fuel as well. The reason is that, the grid electricity contain foreign oil. For example, majority of the electricity in Hawaii is generated from petroleum. If I can replace it with renewable domestic electricity, I can cancel / switch out my Prius petroleum consumption with renewable.

The only difference is that EPA rates Prius emits 222 g/mi while Volt emits 260 g/mi nation wide average. That means a Volt owner would have to buy more green credits to achieve the same.

I thought GM said Prius is the top traded-in car. That means most went from 222 g/mi to 260 g/mi, increasing carbon footprint.

Using your logic, a lot of Prius owners replaced their SUVs and Minivans. I would say Prius CO2 reduction is greater.

 

Volt surely tracks the total 66.5 gallons and it did not reset every time you refill it with premium gas.

However, it resets the electricity consumption? So you have no idea the total electricity you consumed.

 

This discussion is definitely more appropriate for the environmental not news forum. I don't think the ability to buy green credits for your prius really affected volt production.

This has been discussed ad nausium on that forum but perhaps you two would like to start yet another thread. Hawaii is a special case. If one wants to get green energy there they need to put up solar panels. Green credits unlike purchasing renewables for use, have had a poor track record of actually building more renewable projects. I am not saying that they can't work, but be careful when you purchase.
Another Inconvenient Truth - Businessweek If you know of any companies that are not double counting please post the names in an environmental thread.

 

Lyle avoided speculation, he just reported information as it was provided to him by his close contacts at GM.

As he wrote, GM had FOR YEARS been saying that the car would travel 40 EV miles on 8 kwh. On launch day, GM finally admitted that 8 was actually 10.4 kwh for 40 miles. Of course 40 miles turned out to be 35 (?) by EPA testing, but since GM had never been transparent enough to actually say what test cycle they were using, they had *cough* *cough* plausible deniability WRT to the miles number.

You wanted to keep the facts straight. Now admit to them.

You and I both knew that the car was not going to manage 200 wh/mile on EPA, years before the car was for sale. I told the fanboys that based on my experience with the Prius, and was forever after called a troll. This discussion is about GM statements, hype, and lies, not the modicum of sense you and I shared.

Want another example of GM BS ?
Remember their refusal to publish CS data, instead forcing consumers to wait for EPA ? To this day I laugh at the temerity of GM, expecting customers to put down deposits for the car without knowing that piece of info.

As you can see, I know the facts, and I have a long memory. On good days GM spins; on bad days it outright lies by my ethical standard. I cannot imagine giving that company any of my money; and of course the money I was forced to give them in the form of the bailout was against my preference.

I'm looking forward to the day GM dies.

 

I hope you like watching the economy collapse along with the "death" of GM. The ripple effects of the end of a major world wide automaker going out of business will cost tens of millions of jobs.

 

It is 2012 not 2009, and perhaps we should be more forward looking.

GM did say 40 aer and it turned out to be 35. We do not know the negotiations going on with the epa. The 16kwh pack was known. GM should have known they were not going to make their target. 8kwh soc range was pretty idle speculation. The current volt is 38 aer on a 16.5 kwh pack, IIRC it uses a higher percentage of the pack, and the car is slightly more efficient.

Nissan said their leaf would get 100 aer it ended up with 73 in the epa.

Toyota said 15 miles charge depletion range and it ended up with 11 miles.

We shall soon see if ford actually gets the 20 miles charge depletion that they claim. Everyone else has over promised. Tesla S promised 300 miles and ended up with 265. All of the epa figures were known before anyone took delivery of a car.

 

^^ GM treats it's customers like morons who cannot remember the BS it spouted yesterday, never mind 3 years ago.

This probably explains why I will never be a GM customer. I like my money to support companies that take responsibility for their actions today, tomorrow, and further into the future. It meshes with my environmental agenda.

Does it surprise anybody that GM dumped it's toxic waste problems onto the public when it restructured ? What a scumbag of a company.