China Believes In Hydrogen over Tesla.

Discussion in 'Tesla' started by orenji, Nov 19, 2020.

  1. orenji

    orenji Senior Member

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  2. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    What is the number they are tripling?
     
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  3. orenji

    orenji Senior Member

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    Over Two tonns of Hydrogen everyday. So over six tonns will be available.
     
  4. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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  5. kensiko

    kensiko Member

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    Hydrogen is great but will cost more than simple electric vehicles, money will drive people away from it
     
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  6. R-P

    R-P Active Member

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    Unless we find a decent way of producing hydrogen*, I thought the consensus of everyone with some knowledge about the subject was that it is a dead end.

    For production of H2, most of the time, natural gas is used. And it will come as no surprise that the Dutch busses which run on (an X amount of) natural gas (there's hundreds of them) can drive WAY further than the few experimental ones that run on H2 (made with the same X amount of natural gas).

    In the 90's many, many, many governments subsidised the development of H2 in cars. If it had been viable, Tesla would never had stood a chance.

    But that's my opinion.

    * and a decent way of producing isn't using 'surplus' wind and solar in electrolysis. The efficiency of that is abysmal and could be put to better use by making the grid a little more intelligent.
     
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  7. orenji

    orenji Senior Member

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    It’s 2020 and it’s a different world we live in. Hydrogen is the future.
     
  8. orenji

    orenji Senior Member

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    How so? Tesla just eliminated the $35k Model 3. The average new truck costs $70k plus and people can’t stop buying them. Costs of vehicles is high across the Board. A $60k Mirai is not that expensive.
     
  9. iplug

    iplug Senior Member

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    Hydrogen is the future, just not in passenger vehicles.

    It goes like this: Giant H2 nuclear fusion reactor at the center of our solar system. Photons emitted irradiate our earth. Photons are converted to electricity in solar panels. Radiation from the H2 nuclear fusion reactor warms the earth and creates wind which turns wind turbines which produce electricity. Radiation from the H2 nuclear fusion reactor warms the earth and sustains the water cycle which turns hydroelectric turbines which produces electricity. Electricity powers BEVs.


    I just spoke to my sister in Los Angeles. The Mirai is her only vehicle and she lives in apartment with 40 EV plugs.

    She notes “7 out of 10 times” her Woodland Hills H2 station says “service unavailable” on the pump. To compound matters, what online says and what the pump says are often wrong at Woodland Hills. She notes tow trucks are there all the time picking up stranded Mirai.

    Next closest stations are too far away (Thousand Oaks, Hollywood, and Santa Monica). Santa Monica and Hollywood are out of fuel all the time.

    According to the terms of her lease, you can’t drive the Mirai out of California even if H2 is available there (which is rare).

    She is asking Toyota to let her surrender her lease (has about another year on it) without penalty due to how unreliable using this vehicle is, but Toyota is being difficult and so far saying no.
     
  10. orenji

    orenji Senior Member

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    Yeah Toyota is not going to let her out of her lease. It’s a contract. Should of did more research before buying. Never said it was perfect. But depending where you live it is not bad, as I have 3 locations near me with Hydrogen availability. 7 more stations are in the works for California to the existing 45. It’s a new technology to the masses and it will have issues as it develops but that’s why they call us TrailBlazers.
     
  11. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    When reports of hydrogen plants are talking electrolysis, they aren't talking about just sticking electrodes into a tank of water. New plants will likely use what is basically a PEM fuel cell running in reverse. These are more efficient.

    Using wind and solar is fine, and we do need storage methods to align their production up with use. That likely won't be hydrogen, and excess renewable power might be too fickle in order to get green hydrogen price competitive with fossil hydrogen. The price of off peak power will also rise with hydrogen plants coming on line. So cheap green hydrogen would likely require wind power and hydrogen plants to be integrated.

    We are already using hydrogen to make a lot of things. A big one is ammonia that mostly goes into fertilizers. if we want to move away from fossil fuels, we'll need a practical way of making green hydrogen. Decarbonizing industry doesn't mean that hydrogen will be practical for personal cars. Maybe commercial trucks, buses, and trains, but there are other fuels for consideration there. Some of which can be made from green hydrogen.

    The real block to hydrogen cars isn't in making the hydrogen, it is in getting the hydrogen onto the cars. While hopefully not losing usable space in the car.

    A CNG Camry hybrid can go the same distance as a Mirai when the hydrogen comes from natural gas, and we can make methane from green hydrogen. The Camry will just lose a lot of trunk space, like the Mirai, for the tank.

    The Lexus GS starts at $51k. Why would someone looking for luxury choose the Mirai over that? Even using premium gas, it is cheaper to fuel, and has better performance. What does the Mirai provide to the ICE buyer that other luxury ICE models don't. Why pick it over a BEV or PHEV, both of which can be had from luxury brands that aren't Tesla?
    The Clarity FCX was available to the public in 2008. So they are still having problems with getting hydrogen to cars after 12 years
     
  12. orenji

    orenji Senior Member

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    New pumps for Hydrogen are just now being used that greatly improved reliability and speed of obtaining hydrogen. True Zero is leading with this innovation.

    Buy a Mirai for the environment and fast fueling times. That’s the reason for going with a Mirai over an ICE.
     
  13. iplug

    iplug Senior Member

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    You're right, if she did and many others they would not have acquired a Mirai.

    They sold her ultimately by telling her 2 more H2 stations would be coming nearby in 2019 and that didn't happen then or even this year. Can't fuel your car, that's bad faith. So many complained that Toyota offered to let them skip some payments, but still many pissed lessees. They're not going back to hydrogen even with the give away deals.

    More people are disinterested in H2 today than they were just a few years ago for passenger vehicles.
     
  14. orenji

    orenji Senior Member

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    Let me help with clarity. Toyota actually gave many Toyota Leases 6 months free payments during the Hydrogen shortage and paid for everyone’s rentals and gas during that time. So really nothing to complain about. Toyota stepped up and took care of its customers. Yes one needs to research Before buying and leasing a Hydrogen car to make sure it will work for them, like having a 2nd car just in case there are Hydrogen supple issues. But with FCEV sales increasing and True Zero installing the latest hydrogen stations the growing pains have become less of an issue - Hydrogen maybe a perfect alternative to BEV for those without access to home charging.
     
  15. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Let's see. Something happens, and you can't use your new car for weeks or even months. Since the manufacturer waived some of your payments, and provided a rental with free fuel, you shouldn't complain.

    That's just BS.
     
  16. orenji

    orenji Senior Member

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    If you researched before buying a $60K car with an new fueling technology and new Fueling infrastructure, one would know of all the pros and cons. So no, one should not complain. One should be happy to be helping with advancement of a future product for the benefit of mankind.
     
  17. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    That attitude will not get people into FCEVs.
     
  18. orenji

    orenji Senior Member

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    Attitude? It’s being prudent in the 2nd largest investment one makes within ones life.
     
  19. iplug

    iplug Senior Member

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    They're doing a heck of a job driving people away. Wait, you can't drive away with all those empty H2 stations, you're just stuck. Prudent, you say.

    Now they have to send sales person to PriusChat to advertise for them, that's how bad it's gotten.
     
  20. orenji

    orenji Senior Member

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    You know your doing a disservice to the entire electric revolution with not accepting that Hydrogen is an alternative to BEV.
     
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