Christian activists disrupt Hindu prayer in US Senate

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Boulder Bum @ Jul 14 2007, 04:51 PM) [snapback]478767[/snapback]</div>

You want Founding Father quotes? I'll give you quotes:

"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." - Thomas Jefferson, in a 1787 letter to his nephew

"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies." - Thomas Jefferson

"Every new and successful example, therefore, of a perfect separation between the ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance; and I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity the less they are mixed together" - James Madison, in a Letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." - John Adams, Treaty of Tripoly, article 11

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." - Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack

“Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. I had hoped that liberal and enlightened thought would have reconciled the Christians so that their [not our?] religious fights would not endanger the peace of Society.†George Washington, Letter to Sir Edward Newenham, June 22, 1792

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(pyccku @ Jul 14 2007, 01:09 PM) [snapback]478728[/snapback]</div>

Depends, but I wonder why you have to ask as I thought I had made it fairly plain in the previous post that it is not my message nor do I endorse it and to make it even plainer the method in which it was delivered. Although sometimes that is what it takes. If you want to sing the blues you have to pay the dues which these folks did. Almost all Christians would take the opportunity to sit and talk with you on just about any subject and would respect your opinions and views and quite a few would tolerate rude disruptive behavior and continue on after the diatribe ended. There are only a few that express themselves in a way that is objectionable but they seem to be the ones that a few on this board chose to pick in order to paint all Christians in the same manner. You don't do that do you? BTW do you know any other organization that donations more time or money to the poor or disadvantaged?

Wildkow

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(pyccku @ Jul 14 2007, 04:09 PM) [snapback]478728[/snapback]</div>

Actually, that happens. We invite people of other faiths to help us understand them, but they're not invited to run the worship service although they are welcome to attend.
Usually they speak in Sunday school or for some other group. I've heard a Muslim, a Rabbi and a Catholic priest. They were treated with respect and intense interest. And no one tried to convert them, show them how they were wrong or change them in any way. We were the ones listening and learning.
And yes, we know the difference between Hindu and Muslim.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(pyccku @ Jul 14 2007, 04:26 PM) [snapback]478778[/snapback]</div>

Notice, I didn't say the Hindu shouldn't have been able to pray, I just said that I support the ability for the protesters to express their views. That's what Democracy is supposed to be about, right? The people having a say in the operation of the government?

Personally, I support things like religious teachings in schools, and think that student/community demand should dictate which classes are offered, be they Christian, Muslim, Hindu, whatever.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Stev0 @ Jul 14 2007, 05:10 PM) [snapback]478802[/snapback]</div>

Sure, and this could go back and forth. Thomas Jefferson also said things like, "I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus" and James Madison, for example, signed a federal bill in 1812 funding the Bible Society of Philadelphia helping its goal of the mass distribution of the Bible.

Not all the founding fathers were Christian, it's true. Jefferson was a Deist (despite his claims of being a Christian), as was Thomas Paine, etc., but if you look at what they believed about the place of religion in life and the public space, you'll find that they support it much more than we do now (funding the distribution of Bibles, calling for the Bible to be taught in schools, etc.).

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Boulder Bum @ Jul 14 2007, 05:26 PM) [snapback]478838[/snapback]</div>

EGADS! Man say it's not true! :blink:

Wildkow

 

But there is a time and place for making their views known. If you don't like a Hindu leading prayer in the Senate - take it up with the Senate! Don't yell over the prayer while it is being given.

If someone takes offense to the Judeo-Christian themed prayers that are given say...99% of the time in government functions that have these prayers - is it entirely acceptable to interrupt them with shouts and ridicule? If these were Hindu protestors shouting about Ganesh during the usual prayer led by a Christian minister, it would still be entirely cool?

It's all about respect. These people showed no respect. They may not believe in the Hindu religion - but the Hindus have obviously respected the Christians giving the prayer that have been happening for a really long time...Why shouldn't they have the same respect?

 

TOP TEN SIGNS YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN
(visit: http://www.geocities.com/atheisthandbook )

10. You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.

9. You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created directly from dirt.

8. You laugh at polytheists, but have no problem believing in a Triune God.

7. Your face turns purple when you hear the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua", including women, children and trees!

6. You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and ascended into the sky.

5. You are willing to spend your life looking for loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing the Earth is a few generations old.

4. You believe the entire population of this planet with the exception of those that share your beliefs -- though excluding those in rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving".

3. While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor and speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.

2. You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence prayer works. And you think the remaining 99.9% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

1. You actually know alot less than atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Stev0 @ Jul 14 2007, 04:10 PM) [snapback]478802[/snapback]</div>

These are mostly accurate, but I know one that is sort of mis-attributed. The one you have as from John Adams from the Treaty of Tripoli cannot really be attributed to just John Adams. It was voted on and approved by the Senate of the US, and signed by John Adams. Its controversial, because it appears in the English version of the treaty and not the Arabic one, but the statement was in the copy voted on by the Senate and signed by the President. So it was the understanding of one of the most devout of the founders.

The OP mentioned David Barton, although the linked article doesn't mention him. I don't recognize the group "Operation Save America", but I wouldn't be surprised if they are affiliated with Barton. Barton is the founder of a group named something like "WallBuilders", that proposes that America was intended to be some kind of Christian theocracy. I read his books, and they are the historical equivalent to Van Daniken's "Chariots of the Gods", with a lot of fuzzy-minded thinking involved.

I don't know if he is tied to the more-fundamentalist group "Christian Reconstructionists" or not, but they are in the same vein. While a fringe group, and pretty out there in terms of their beliefs, they have not been violent. You can get them to admit, after much inquiry, that if this were a Christian theocracy and if our laws were following Biblical principles, then execution would be in order for things like adultry, disobedience to parents, etc.

These people number a few hundred in the country, not in the millions. They should be watched, because anyone with beliefs that far out of the mainstream, who feel they are being persecuted, should be watched. But they probably are not too much of a threat.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ Jul 14 2007, 06:37 PM) [snapback]478843[/snapback]</div>

It's true! I'm pretty socially conservative and though I don't fit all the Christian stereotypes, my political belief system is based on my religious belief system.

To my credit, though, my belief system also motivates me to do things like drive a Prius in an effort to fight what I consider the "un-Christian" greed and evil of big oil.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(pyccku @ Jul 14 2007, 07:19 PM) [snapback]478862[/snapback]</div>

Yeah, I see your point. It was a little tacky.

Then again, would they have generated as much attention for their ideas (for better or worse) if they opted for a more passive protest?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Boulder Bum @ Jul 14 2007, 10:07 PM) [snapback]478891[/snapback]</div>

It was more than a little tacky. It was downright disrespectful.

And, yes, they could have generated as much attention for their ideas (and for the better) if they had tried. All it would have taken would be a few signs and a phone call to the local media. Or Sean Hannity.

 

Unfortunately, the tactic they chose just made a lot of people say "gee, those Christians sure are @ssholes!"

Whatever happened to shining your light to let men see so you could glorify the Lord? I guess the new commandment is to fling poo to cover up any other lights so that they won't be seen. Of course, that just leads to darkness all around.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(pyccku @ Jul 14 2007, 06:19 PM) [snapback]478862[/snapback]</div>

I agree, however, where was the protest when Columbia University liberals violently rushed the stage and repeatedly shouted down the speaker? Today "free speech" is being redefined by far left liberals into a flavor of politically correct speech that must be in lock step with the secular liberalism that is most favored at that campus or risk being knocked or shouted down by the self-appointed "tolerant-majority". I've look around on this site and can't find any condemnation for this act.
BTW has anyone come up with another organization, say atheist, agnostic, Muslim, Hindu etc. yet that contributes more time and money to the poor and needy than Christians or the organizations they represent? Nothing?


Wildkow

 

Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian

10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.

9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.

8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.

7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!

6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.

5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.

4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."

3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.

2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Swanny1172 @ Jul 14 2007, 10:25 PM) [snapback]478920[/snapback]</div>

You didn't read my post six posts up?

 

There are actually quite a few organizations that are non-religious/non-Christian that help the needy. The Red Crescent is quite active in the Muslim part of the world. Medecins sans frontieres is another group that helps out. The Peace Corp isn't a religious organization, yet they have helped extensively. The UN does quite a bit of assistance work all over the world.

I would guess that a lot of the Christian churches/organizations will out-give the non-Christian ones due to the sheer size difference. The Catholic church is HUGE. There is no way a smaller organization (say, the MSF) is going to be able to give more than they do, simply because they don't have the resources. This doesn't mean that the MSF is an unworthy organization - they just don't have the clout that some other groups do.

In addition, there are many charities in this world that you haven't heard of because you don't live where they are active. I am sure that you will find Muslim charities in the Muslim regions, Hindu charities in the Hindu regions, and Buddhist charities in those regions. But you won't hear about them on the news here, because they aren't local.

When the US suffered through Hurricane Katrina and the aftermath, there were quite a few nations and charities that offered assistance to us. We told them no thanks. I would guess if we had accepted their assistance, you might have heard of a few non-Christian, non-religious charities.

I would never deny that there are a lot of good Christians donig good Christlike deeds in this world. But sadly, all it takes is a few idiots to throw a poor light on Christianity. This is no different from what has happened to Islam, though - never mind the billions who detest terrorism and the whole jihad movement - the idiots who blow themselves (and others) up will contaminate the religion.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Boulder Bum @ Jul 15 2007, 12:30 AM) [snapback]478977[/snapback]</div>

Woah, good thing! Otherwise, NOBODY in this country would be aware of the...what is it called? Oh, yeah, Christianity. I love the way they go out on a limb, pushing the envelope with the really controversial opinion of being pro-Christian. That's right up there with the "Puppies are Cute" people.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Stev0 @ Jul 15 2007, 12:03 AM) [snapback]478985[/snapback]</div>

There's a difference between saying people know about human rights violations in general and saying people know about the attrocities in the Darfur region of Sudan, just like there's a difference in saying Americans know about Christianity in general and the fact that the traditionally Christian prayer over Senate was replaced with a Hindu prayer for the first time.

In fact, I heard nothing of the matter until I read this thread, which was started because of the ruckus these people caused.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Swanny1172 @ Jul 13 2007, 11:15 PM) [snapback]478494[/snapback]</div>

I'd have to try real hard to say it better myself.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(burritos @ Jul 14 2007, 04:43 PM) [snapback]478766[/snapback]</div>

HERETIC!! WWFSMD? Have you been touched by his noodly appendage?



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Jul 14 2007, 05:50 PM) [snapback]478788[/snapback]</div>

Ignorant might be too good of a word here. I almost gagged when
I read that crap. Especially the 'not founded on' part. What a joke.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Jul 14 2007, 10:49 PM) [snapback]478927[/snapback]</div>

It needed to be repeated. That poster beat me to it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(pyccku @ Jul 14 2007, 09:17 PM) [snapback]478949[/snapback]</div>

Once again I agree with some of your points such as "it only takes a few idiots to throw a poor light on Christianity." I'd also like to point out that it only takes a few more idiots to take those actions by a very few Christians to paint all other Christians in a like manner. BTW I thought I would make you aware of this topic so that you wouldn't feel as if you were misled by finding it later and thinking that I had ambushed you.

Wildkow

p.s. BTW Christians are only one third of the world population it would be interesting to see how "we" stack up against all the others combined. I'm betting that Christians still out give all other's combined, anyone know how to look up some stats on this?

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