Comparing Natural Disasters

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by dbermanmd, Oct 24, 2007.

  1. dbermanmd

    dbermanmd New Member

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    and the response to them.

    I am struck at the way California is handling almost ONE MILLION displaced persons - there is order, there is calm, there are plans in place - and I am unaware of something happening on this scale at least during my nearly 50 years on this planet.

    Contrast it to...

    New Orleans. No leadership at the local or state governmental levels (notice had the Federal govt has little if any role in California - how it is not needed), local residents looting, shooting at the rescuers and police and firemen, chaos, etc. And they had days of watching that great big red circle on radar roll right into their homes. Totally amazing -

    I am wondering if we will be hearing comments about President Bush and FEMA or about other topics that were raised by everyone after Katrina?

    Anyhow, its nice to see all the good that is coming in the wake of this total disaster - and the very small loss of life - unfortunate that anyone died.
     
  2. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    I think you're right in that there is clearly something at the local level making the management much better in CA.

    However, they are very different situations and NO's lower socioeconomic inner city population's resources for self-evacuation and the ability to plan and anticipate are much different.

    Further, there is some predictibility to the fires and the way they move and progress and an organized timely evacuation of communities in the path of the fire is fairly manageable. Nobody anticipated the collapse of the levies and the massive flooding of the city.

    The geograpy of NO also proved difficult whereas there are innumerable areas where people can self-evacuate in CA and find comfortable housing and such.

    Don't get me wrong though, there were HUGE problems in NO and at every level..but knowing the beaurocracy of Louisiana this is not suprising in the least.
     
  3. lefat1

    lefat1 Fat Member

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    No comparison. I lived in California, dodged many fires, now in Florida. Got slammed by 3 hurricanes, a little harder to escape. Couldnt imagine a levee busting on top of the mass destruction we had from winds. Could you? Easy for you to say from your cozy abode. And maybe the feds will have learned something from Katrina and get it close to right this time. I'm sure Arnie will appreciate that as his lovely wife so graciously stated.
     
  4. dbermanmd

    dbermanmd New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lefat1 @ Oct 24 2007, 09:41 AM) [snapback]529653[/snapback]</div>
    I dont know if you can compare a hurricane vs a flood/fire both of which destroy everything in their path while the hurricane (depending on its strength and the building standards of the homes and buildings involved) can pass over and leave structures intact.

    I truly admire what local and state governments are doing - and large corporations - in california. again - no looting, no shooting at public employees, no body being euthanized.... And little if no federal help.
     
  5. lefat1

    lefat1 Fat Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Oct 24 2007, 09:52 AM) [snapback]529658[/snapback]</div>
    elaborate please.
     
  6. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    I believe FEMA is on site in CA as well as the Red Cross and other relieve agencies...none of which could reach NO in the first few days following that disaster.
     
  7. dbermanmd

    dbermanmd New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lefat1 @ Oct 24 2007, 09:56 AM) [snapback]529659[/snapback]</div>
    about what?

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Oct 24 2007, 09:57 AM) [snapback]529660[/snapback]</div>
    That could be true - but I am still amazed at the differences. Also look at large corporations pitching in again - private businesses helping out. Nice to see in this time of need. Again, the differences in state and local governments handling of this is the way it is supposed to be.

    If i can, being in Gotham during 9/11 - it was amazing at how local government and everybody here handled it so well. Rudy was amazing, the cops, firefighters, the people all were great. No warning, total chaos, massive loss of life, significant destruction of local infrastructure including communications - and here to much better handled than New Orleans handled Katrina.
     
  8. lefat1

    lefat1 Fat Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Oct 24 2007, 10:27 AM) [snapback]529667[/snapback]</div>
    elaborate as in, do u believe that poor people in NO arent capable. or perhaps when the feds are needed, they just werent there, at least this administration of idiots.
    once again, different type of disaster. totally uncomparable..say hello to rudy and his priest friend for me..lol..
     
  9. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    Again, agreed that the local response is better in CA and was better in NYC on 9/11. That said the area of the disaster and the duration of the actual impact of the disaster were very limited compared to an entire city innundated in NO. The ability to even mobilize the resources was extremely limited. All resources in NYC could be readily mobilized.

    Please don't take this as me minimizing the serverity of 9/11 in NYC, just that at least the main infrastructure of the city remained intact which facilitated an organized response. NO was devestated as were the local suburban areas...the resources were flooded. The ambulances and police cars that had been moved to 'higher ground' in anticipation of possible flooding..were flooded by the dramatically higher waters than ever before experienced.
     
  10. burritos

    burritos Senior Member

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    While 1800 houses/businesses have been destroyed by the fires, that figure pales in comparison to the wake of destruction of Katrina. Also, with the flooding that hampered transportation efforts for all, where as in Socal, people pretty much can still get around.

    Comparing these fires to Katrina is like comparing the Armenian genocide to the holocaust.
     
  11. ACORNBLUES

    ACORNBLUES New Member

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    f u. how is fire more predicable? Did you even consider the +40mph gusting winds that change directions unpredictably? Add to that the fire was generating its own wind. Oh and lets add to the fact that the fixed wing fire fighting resources were grounded due to the high winds. go tell a firefighter that fire is predictable.

    innumerable areas? comfortable? Hello. The winds were spreading ash causing most of the areas not burned to be uninhabitable. evac centers were filled and even though q.stadium was only officially at 25% capacity, the parking lot was filled w/ unregistered "tailgaters". You should have seen the desperation and helplessness in the evacuees eyes as they file past the relief workers. yeah, it sure was comfortable to sleep on concrete in open ash-filled air and SD desert cold nights and the thought that the fire might spread through the SD river to the Q.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Oct 24 2007, 08:35 AM) [snapback]529650[/snapback]</div>
     
  12. IsrAmeriPrius

    IsrAmeriPrius Progressive Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Oct 24 2007, 06:52 AM) [snapback]529658[/snapback]</div>
    Not quite accurate.

     
  13. geologyrox

    geologyrox New Member

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    As a Floridian lucky enough to have evacuated for both hurricanes and fires, and worked with emergency services through a number of both, I don't wish either of them on anyone.

    A well-managed local response makes everything easier - but when conditions break down for any reason, those affected shouldn't be written off because they were unprepared.
     
  14. mojo

    mojo Senior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Oct 24 2007, 08:12 AM) [snapback]529645[/snapback]</div>
    Comparing the Feds response in Ca to NO, could add credence to Kanye West's statement "George Bush doesn't care about black people".
     
  15. dbermanmd

    dbermanmd New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lefat1 @ Oct 24 2007, 10:36 AM) [snapback]529677[/snapback]</div>
    i forgot, there are no poor people in california and no wealthy people in NO. my bad.
    where are the feds in california?? seems to me just a difference in the quality of local and state governments.

    i have not seen rudy in a few months - i will send you well wishes to him.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Oct 24 2007, 10:37 AM) [snapback]529679[/snapback]</div>
    having lived through 9/11 up close and personal, the loss of cell phone communications were devastating. it was the reason i ran downtown - we thought daughter had "bought it" - and you could not get a hold of anybody. Gotham had ZERO time to prepare for it too while NO had a week but in reality had DECADES to get ready. the fact that the local and state govt there FAILED so MISERABLY is SHOCKING. it is not like it is not going to happen again - it is just a matter of when. 9/11 was a first and was an event for which no planning was possible - yet the local govt here and the public employees and the people here on the ground were MAGNIFICENT! I understand about the magnitude of the flooding - i am just stating that the differences here are significant - just in the response to the disaster.

    Evan,
    Did you ever try the Three Ring Shiraz?

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(burritos @ Oct 24 2007, 12:25 PM) [snapback]529730[/snapback]</div>
    Bad comparison bro - the numbers where both in the millions i thought. and i do not think you have a true appreciation for the number of wildfires burning, the amount of land involved, and the nature of the disruption of the infrastructure there.

    at least NO had decades to get ready for their flood - and yet, failed miserably.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ACORNBLUES @ Oct 24 2007, 12:34 PM) [snapback]529736[/snapback]</div>
    at least with katrina you had a defined area of destruction. and again decades of preparation.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Oct 24 2007, 12:46 PM) [snapback]529743[/snapback]</div>
    Looks like that even though we are fighting an active war in Iraq and Afghanistan and other places in the world, we still have lots of resources here at home to help those in need. Nice work on discovering what is available to help - and figure this is just the tip of the iceberg.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(geologyrox @ Oct 24 2007, 12:56 PM) [snapback]529750[/snapback]</div>
    True, that is why Katrina was so devastating - the local and state governments and response - even given the heads up of what was heading their way - and and and - decades of planning - and and and - billions of dollars of american treasure - the local and state governments down there were horrible.

    if you cannot count on local response to emergencies and disasters, it stops there.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mojo @ Oct 24 2007, 02:20 PM) [snapback]529792[/snapback]</div>
    you hit the nail on the head. perceptive. insightful.
     
  16. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ACORNBLUES @ Oct 24 2007, 11:34 AM) [snapback]529736[/snapback]</div>
    I'm not trying to minimize the fires at all, but there is time to react and predict compared to the sudden and catastrophic innundation by the breakage of the levies in NO. While the fire is not completely predictible it isn't suddenly going to involve the entire city of SD as the flooding did NO. On a larger scale the fire is predictible enough that areas can be sequentially evacuated to protect the citizens before the fire reaches them.
     
  17. Stev0

    Stev0 Honorary Hong Kong Cavalier

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Oct 24 2007, 02:48 PM) [snapback]529825[/snapback]</div>
    You left off completely predicted to the list of adjectives (that story I linked to - written a year BEFORE Katrina hit).
     
  18. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Stev0 @ Oct 24 2007, 03:10 PM) [snapback]529836[/snapback]</div>
    Very true, none-the-less once it happened the response became extremely complex.

    I keep getting the sense that people think I'm minimizing other disasters. I think it's more like comparing a heart attack to a ruptured aneurysm....they're very different but quite devastating and the responses are significantly different.
     
  19. skruse

    skruse Senior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Oct 24 2007, 06:12 AM) [snapback]529645[/snapback]</div>
    After many years of being faced with floods, fires, earthquakes and other multiple major catastrophes, California largely has its act together. The ICS (Incident Command System), coördinated by the Office of Emergency Services (Sacramento), administers and trains ICS. It is not a perfect system, but ICS works from the lowest to the highest level.

    This is in contrast to not too many years ago when two fire trucks could arrive at a hydrant and none of the threads on hoses, adapters or hydrants were compatible. California has come a long way. Now, we just need to stop building flammable "starter castles" in flood plains and in fire-dependent vegetation.
     
  20. burritos

    burritos Senior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Oct 24 2007, 02:31 PM) [snapback]529812[/snapback]</div>
    Considering that I live in socal, every other channel is about the fires, I've kept my family indoors cause the sky is browned out, and my mountain biking buddy is a fireman on the front line who's been working 3 days straight, I think I have a pretty good appreciation. A lot of stuff has burned but the damage of man made structures pale compared to the man made structures destroyed in katrina.

    Quotes like 1-2 billion dollars of damage are being thrown around here in socal. In katrina, weren't they citing estimates of 50 billion+ to rebuild?
     
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