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Comparing Natural Disasters

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by dbermanmd, Oct 24, 2007.

  1. Godiva

    Godiva AmeriKan Citizen

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    Keep in mind, we learned a lot from the Cedar Fires of 2003. Officials on all levels received a lot of criticism (and rightly so) and improvements and changes were made point by point.

    This fire shows that many of those changes were both needed and they worked. The reverse 911 calling system is reponsible in a large part for the orderly evacuations.

    I'll also say that Mayor Sanders didn't wait for "permission" when help was offered. Tijuana send four firetrucks and crews and the Gov. of Baja Calif. has also offered help to the city. We're not going to pull the "thanks but no thanks we'll handle it ourselves" that the Bush Administration pulled in the first week of Katrina.

    There have been some hangups. Several brand, spanking, new C-130s are still on the ground due to red tape; they haven't been certified yet. Thus the need to bring in C-130s from Wyoming, Colorado and North Carolina. They arrived last night too late to deploy but went out first thing this morning filled with fire retardant. The change in the winds helped also.

    And there was one incidence of looting in San Diego County. Some teenagers broke into a house to steal some beer. They were caught and arrested.

    We're not as Blonde as we appear.
     
  2. hycamguy07

    hycamguy07 New Member

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    Hmm, we have had our share of wild fires, and hurricanes.. Im amazed at the amount of fraud that takes place after the disaster has passed.. the people line up for fema relief and its given only to find out later they didnt really own what was destroyed .. After andrew Fla. has had the EOC's in place since.. ;)
     
  3. mojo

    mojo Senior Member

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    I believe FDNYs opinion of Guliani as being an opportunist incompetent. He put the command center IN the WTC despite objections from knowledgeable advisors.Guliani is a screw up, but was lucky that the command center wasnt immediately destroyed. I certainly don't want an incompetent but lucky president.
    Comparing Katrina and Socal is apples and oranges. You could probably compare Katrina with the SoCal fires, if the fires had engulfed the urban center of either SD or LA.Would the local agencies have fared as well if the entire city was in flames with people trapped , no roads passable and fire trucks destroyed?
     
  4. priusmaybe

    priusmaybe New Member

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    It is amazing how fast the National Guard and FEMA could get in place in CA, compared to NO. It is amazing how fast the Red Cross got into place. Hmmm. These organizations were not in place 2 weeks after the disaster in NO.



    California is also a huge state with many metropolitan resources that could be dispatched within the state.

    Not to mention that Compared to Louisiana, CA is a wealthy state, with a huge wealthy taxpayer base.

    Rancho Santa Fe, La Jolla, Fairfield Ranch, Malibu, have the most expensive real estate in the country.

    These wealthy folks had transportation and the knowledge to evacuate when told. These folks had road systems to get them out. N.O was locked in the minute the floods took place.
     
  5. dbermanmd

    dbermanmd New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusmaybe @ Oct 24 2007, 06:09 PM) [snapback]529893[/snapback]</div>
    You make it seem like N.O. did not have a week's heads up that every human with a TV could have told them about - hey guys, that big red blog that occupies the entire gulf of mexico, that thing is heading your way, get ready -- and by the way if it hits - those guys in rescue uniforms, they are there to help you - DONT SHOOT AT THEM -- and your fellow citizens, DONT STEAL FROM THEM OR SHOOT AT THEM, and you police guys - ACT LIKE COPS AND RESPECT THE LAWS OF THE LAND.

    You fail to mention the decades of planning and the Billions of dollars allocated to prepare for the eventuality of a katrina like flood. the amount of incompetence in N.O. is staggering on every level - from my perspective - they got one chance at a redo - thats it - done. they should abandon the lowest parts of the city that are at greatest risk, they should spend the money wisely and efficiently, and they should get their emergency plans well worked out and practiced. those that choose to live their do so at their own risk at this point. they should buy insurance, they should plan to another katrina just in case, etc. just like we have planned for another 9/11 here:

    we have cash on hand
    we have rally points in manhattan
    we have rally points outside of manhattan if needed
    we have food and supplies on hand for over two weeks
    we have radios/batteries and other supplies on hand
    we can make a safe room if needed
    we have K+ iodine on hand - God Forbid

    We learned a lesson here. hopefully we have planned to do our best to survive another one - again, God Forbid.
     
  6. lefat1

    lefat1 Fat Member

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    bush and his band of idiots waited too long when katrina hit, he learned a lesson. he called arnie immediately this time, probably cause he ran out of kindergarten books to read.
     
  7. dbermanmd

    dbermanmd New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mojo @ Oct 24 2007, 05:57 PM) [snapback]529886[/snapback]</div>
    Having lived with Rudy for a number of years here in Gotham you could not be further from the truth. He improved the quality of life here, he reduced crime, he was magnificent during 9/11!

    "incompetent but lucky president" - boy i can think of a bunch of them - i would take lucky any day over unlucky.

    have a nice day.
     
  8. lefat1

    lefat1 Fat Member

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    this topic has run its course, how about starting one about bush urging cuban activists to rise up against regime
    btw...rudy is still gay...maybe not, he's had many women..lol..
    also, can someone tell me how to only quote part of someones post...berman, u should be able to help me on that...
     
  9. Ichabod

    Ichabod Artist In Residence

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    It seems like your one and only point, Mr. B, is that in light of the response in SoCal, we should no longer blame FEMA/Fed/Bush for their miserable performance in NO.

    It's obvious that if you have the resources (e.g. California... bigger and wealthier than many of the world's countries) and your city is not completely destroyed in a matter of hours, then you're going to do a better job responding. Hurricanes can change course, and when they do, people who over-prepared for them sometimes feel less inclined to prepare so well the next time. It's not smart, but it happens.

    But regardless of how well local authorities handle a situation, FEMA is still there for a reason, and has a job to do. George Bush, against all indications, also has a job to do. In NO, the local government failed almost as catastrophically as the levies, and then it became a matter for FEMA, and for Bush.

    Sorry, but California burning doesn't get him off the hook for that.
     
  10. lefat1

    lefat1 Fat Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ichabod @ Oct 25 2007, 09:59 AM) [snapback]530211[/snapback]</div>
    well said icha, can u tell me how to only quote part of ones post
     
  11. Ichabod

    Ichabod Artist In Residence

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lefat1 @ Oct 25 2007, 10:19 AM) [snapback]530228[/snapback]</div>
    Yeah, just hit the ["REPLY] button (yeah, the one with the quote on it) and then in the edit window, just delete parts of the post that you don't want to include... in this case, I deleted some words and replaced them with an ellipsis in order to signal to readers that the post has been "snipped." I might also include a "tag" like [snip] to show sections that were edited.
     
  12. lefat1

    lefat1 Fat Member

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    in this case, I deleted some words and replaced them with an ellipsis in order to signal to readers that the post has been "snipped." I might also include a "tag" like [snip] to show sections that were edited.
    [/quote]
    like this, but, whats and ellpsis, i thought that was a geometric figure
    nevermind, i got the ellipsis, but what happened to the quote marks
     
  13. dbermanmd

    dbermanmd New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ichabod @ Oct 25 2007, 09:59 AM) [snapback]530211[/snapback]</div>
    I was not looking to assess blame - just highlight what can be done during a natural disaster - even when there is little if no warning initially - turns out it was arsen!

    My life is not spent looking for ways to hate or blame people including President Bush or Clinton - It is my hope that from disasters lessons can be learned and mistakes prevented from happening again. It is my belief that the scope of local and state failure - after decades of planning and prepping and spending - in the Katrina debacle could never have been anticipated by the Federal authorities - and that the Feds should not be tasked with being the primary responder to any huge disaster.

    I also look at the Katrina event as evidence of the depth and breadth of American charity and bigheartedness. In fact my brother just went down there two months ago (and of course we donated stuff that he brought with him) with his family and colleagues to continue giving and supporting the people of N.O. He is a tried and true Democrat - and funny thing - he does not blame President Bush for any of this. In fact he sees it as I do - not as a Democrat or Republican thing - but as a human thing, as an American thing.
     
  14. mojo

    mojo Senior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Oct 25 2007, 11:15 AM) [snapback]530283[/snapback]</div>
    One question after Katrina was and is ,how can a major terrorist attack be dealt with when the government is incompetent?
    A nuke in a major metropolitan area would be on a scale way beyond 9/11 ,which basically involved only a few city blocks.Or the SoCal fire which was rural and suburban.
    You cant expect local agencies to handle a citywide emergency ,when the entire city has been destroyed.
    Bush failed miserably during and after Katrina..His lack of management caused untold agony for hundreds of thousands of people.
    Dr Berman You are being disingenuous about not wanting to point blame.You are trying to blame the NO local government ,and absolve Bush of responsibility.Only your comparison of NO and SoCal is unequivalent and proves nothing.
     
  15. hv74656

    hv74656 Member

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    There seems to be one key factor that people are missing out on. The people are different in CA than in NO. Having just moved from "the south" to San Diego, it's really easy to notice the increased general competency of the people. I haven't seen anyone here shooting the fire helecopters and the volunteers at the stadium are being respected. (I had a friend who volunteered at the astrodome who was assulted by a NO resident becuase she wouldn't give the shoes she was wearing to the resident.) I was expecting gridlock on the freeway from my experience with hurricanes, but the people were smart enough to get themsleves out of harms' way WITHOUT help from the local police. (I didn't see one police car directing traffic out when I had to go.)
    And not to lessen the tragedy on 9/11, but I don't think any people's homes were destroyed by the terrorists. (Granted the loss of a life/family member can destroy a home.) Nevertheless, the people of NYC handled 9/11 as best they could. They had little to no warning compared to the common knowledge that New Orleans floods if you sneeze the wrong way or that SoCal catches on fire if you slide your feet on the grass.
     
  16. Ichabod

    Ichabod Artist In Residence

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    Hurrah for the human/American spirit (does that imply that non-Americans are less than human? Or that Americans have more love for their fellow men? :D )

    We can at least agree that the fed shouldn't be the #1 primary responder in an emergency that doesn't require their intervention. We can probably also agree that the local response to Katrina was disastrous.

    We may differ on why it was disastrous (because the city was destroyed and local capabilities destroyed with it to the point that the disaster was beyond their resources? or because of complacency? we'll never know... :rolleyes:)

    We'll probably have to continue to disagree on the point at which federal intervention was required in New Orleans. It's my opinion that the scope of the disaster surpassed the abilities of local responders, for whatever reason you want to say, be it wide spread destruction, or just plain laziness. I think that's the point at which outside help was needed, and that help was not forthcoming. If you disagree with that, then I'd like to know your opinion on when, in the case of Katrina, or in general, federal assistance is required.

    hv###, others have mentioned the human aspect in this thread. There's a big socioeconomic difference in the 2 regions, and I don't think it's fair to say that NO residents weren't "smart enough" to move. It seems like more and more people tend to agree that under-education has a pretty strong correlation with socioeconomic status. It also seems that if you didn't have a car, or a place to go, and maybe you've lived through hurricanes before, you might decide to try to weather a storm. Lots of factors helped a lot of people make the wrong decision, and I'm not sure I would call them stupid for it, so much as unlucky, or un-privileged.
     
  17. priusmaybe

    priusmaybe New Member

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    Well, I think it goes without saying, that when an area (CA) is wealthy, the general population benefits, with better education, emergency resources, etc. I think if LA was devastated by something like a Hurricane, you would see the same chaos as NO.

    NO residents as a whole are under educated (for whatever reasons) and under resourced (many lacked transportation).

    NO, without a doubt has a huge criminal element (not in jails where they should be) and a great many uneducated and impoverished folks. The city needs more and better law enforcement. Let us hope that the folks that have stayed will demand better local government.

    Without a doubt, Louisiana's government was not remotely ready for this, and based on the history of Hurricanes, they need to get ready. Other Gulf Coasts States should be learning from this.

    The Federal Government should have started sending FEMA, and other aid, when they saw "The Big Red Weather Radar Screen. Weather is always a bigger disaster, and should involve Emergency measures, before these storms hit (while you can still get folks in and folks out). Northern Louisiana and adjoining states should have Services that are ready to dispatch to the Gulf, including bus transportation out.

    NO huge criminal element has been no secret. Bush should have dispatched the National Guard the minute they heard the storm would hit the area.

    There are still FEMA trailers sitting around unused, due to red tape. Look how long it took supplies to get in.

    No one has mentioned The US Army Corp of Engineers, and their role in the NO problem. This role goes way back. What are they going to do now, since they have had some warning?

    The local, state and FEDS were not in good communication from the get go.

    One can look at the state of recovery in NO today, and see that there has not been the progress that one would expect in the USA. Louisiana just elected a new Governor. I hope he gets his butt in gear.

    California's Reverse 911 was very successful, and I bet for some of those folks in denial, or not aware of the proximity of the fires, that phone call was their motivation to get the hell out. Evacuation plays the biggest part in a disaster like this.

    I have seen some complaints coming from CA about lack of Firefighters and equipment, and I am sure the fallout is yet to come. But Bush sure got his sorry butt there in a hurry.

    Each state needs to look at its own plans and resources for emergencies. Georgia is in the midst of a water crisis, and there is no good, factual communication between the states of GA, FL, and AL. Once again the Army Corp of Engineers is involved, and once again the Feds need to step in and help get this on track. This problem shows a total breakdown in communication, planning, and understanding of water resources for a region. Everyone involved is "late to the dance".


    The money being spent in the "War" would be better spent in this country at this time.
     
  18. pyccku

    pyccku Happy Prius Driver

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    There are so many difference between Katrina, 9/11 and the fires that comparisons are difficult to make.

    In Katrina, pretty much EVERYONE in the area was in the same situation - homes destroyed, businesses gone, trapped in one area. It's hard for neighbors and businesses to pitch in when they are just as bad off as everyone else. In CA, the majority of residents have NOT been evacuated. Businesses have not be destroyed everywhere. So people who aren't affected by the fires are able to offer help, supplies, etc. to those who have been affected. Perhaps we would have seen the same thing in NO if it had only been a small area?

    Californians have also had it drilled into them to BE PREPARED at all times. Costco sells earthquake kits, and people do take it seriously. After Northridge, a lot of people learned a lesson - you may not be able to get to the store, you may not be able to get food and water, you may not be able to have power/heat for your home. So a lot of people already had a plan in place, supplies in place for this sort of thing.

    As someone said above, although 9/11 was horrific, the basic infrastructure of NYC was still in place. Stores were still open, and people didn't really lose their homes. Again - it comes down to being a very local catastrophe, with those outside the disaster zone being in a position to help those within the zone. I do think that is the most important difference in the catastrophes - and even if the people of NO had all been rich white Republicans - unless there had been other rich white Republicans in a position to help them out, you would have seen exactly the same outcome.
     
  19. hycamguy07

    hycamguy07 New Member

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    Well, I think it goes without saying, that when an area (CA) is wealthy, the general population benefits, with better education, emergency resources, etc. I think if LA was devastated by something like a Hurricane, you would see the same chaos as NO.

    NO residents as a whole are under educated (for whatever reasons) and under resourced (many lacked transportation).

    NO, without a doubt has a huge criminal element (not in jails where they should be) and a great many uneducated and impoverished folks. The city needs more and better law enforcement. Let us hope that the folks that have stayed will demand better local government.

    Without a doubt, Louisiana's government was not remotely ready for this, and based on the history of Hurricanes, they need to get ready. Other Gulf Coasts States should be learning from this.

    The Federal Government should have started sending FEMA, and other aid, when they saw "The Big Red Weather Radar Screen. Weather is always a bigger disaster, and should involve Emergency measures, before these storms hit (while you can still get folks in and folks out). Northern Louisiana and adjoining states should have Services that are ready to dispatch to the Gulf, including bus transportation out.
    This sounds good now, but if a storms approaching are you going to send your co-workers there to be ready after?

    NO huge criminal element has been no secret. Bush should have dispatched the National Guard the minute they heard the storm would hit the area. Again the national gaurd can be readied by the govenor.

    There are still FEMA trailers sitting around unused, due to red tape. Look how long it took supplies to get in.
    Thank god for the red tape or youd have those who don't really need the assistance, wasting the resourses

    No one has mentioned The US Army Corp of Engineers, and their role in the NO problem. This role goes way back. What are they going to do now, since they have had some warning?
    Again move the city northward

    The local, state and FEDS were not in good communication from the get go.
    The local & state didnt request the feds help until after the storm.

    One can look at the state of recovery in NO today, and see that there has not been the progress that one would expect in the USA. Louisiana just elected a new Governor. I hope he gets his butt in gear.

    California's Reverse 911 was very successful, and I bet for some of those folks in denial, or not aware of the proximity of the fires, that phone call was their motivation to get the hell out. Evacuation plays the biggest part in a disaster like this.

    I have seen some complaints coming from CA about lack of Firefighters and equipment, and I am sure the fallout is yet to come. But Bush sure got his sorry butt there in a hurry.

    Each state needs to look at its own plans and resources for emergencies. Georgia is in the midst of a water crisis, and there is no good, factual communication between the states of GA, FL, and AL. Once again the Army Corp of Engineers is involved, and once again the Feds need to step in and help get this on track. This problem shows a total breakdown in communication, planning, and understanding of water resources for a region. Everyone involved is "late to the dance".


    The money being spent in the "War" would be better spent in this country at this time.

    I was going to continue my replies but it dawned on me your clueless and no matter wht I say your who you are. So I will add by requesting that you due further research.... :rolleyes: ;)
     
  20. Ichabod

    Ichabod Artist In Residence

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    I don't know if anyone here is suggesting that the local authorities responded appropriately to Katrina. I'm certainly not. I was responding to what I saw as Mr. Berman's intent with this thread, which through several of his posts sounded to be "See, natural disasters CAN be handled locally. SoCal Proves that we can absolve Bush or FEMA or whoever at the federal level of any blame."

    My point is not that it's solely the fault of the fed, but that their reaction to a clearly deteriorating disaster was and continues to be lackluster at best.

    When it comes right down to it, each of us is responsible for protecting our lives when we're in peril, but the right decision evaded so many people for some reason... sure we can lay the blame squarely on the local government if you want to ignore how the federal government built the levies in the first place, but that's not the point. The point is, Louisiana is not a country, it's a state in the Unites States of America, and when all else fails, America should be there to help out.

    FEMA was put in place for a reason, and I'm not blaming them for the disaster, but for their own disastrous response when it came time for them to act. Part of that response had to do with poor executive decisions, and when it comes to federal agencies, the President really should be the one to slap them in the face right quick if they're not doing their job in a timely manner.