Comparison of the Insight and Prius

I'm surprised and frustrated too. I thought the new Prius engine would be the Atkinson cycle version of the Corolla engine, which is dual VVT-i. Dual VVT-i seems to be not only helping the efficiency but also giving great low-RPM throttle response, in comparison of the 2009 vs. 2008 Corolla that feature dual vs. single VVT-i. Perhaps they wanted the cut down the cost a bit. I don't think that circulating the exhaust gas improves the efficiency directly. The Carnot-cycle argument of the ratio of the temperatures would only apply to the exhaust temperature at the exhaust valve, not the exhaust pipe. Although, it will help improve the efficiency by reducing the warm-up time.

Toyota is also going to manufacture with the Valvematic technology soon, which will not only control the valve timing but also the intake-valve opening. This is something luxury European sedans have had for a long time.

The only other way to improve the efficiency by huge amounts is to go to a diesel version. The diesel version of the Corolla, which is sold in Europe, gets more MPG than the Prius (city/highway/combined 46/55/48, Cd 0.28, 90 HP, 190 Nm). If you add a hybrid synergy drive on top of that you could get more than 75 MPG. But the environmental regulations in US make selling diesels very difficult (they do emit very harmful particulates after all), and the diesel fuel is very expensive here, opposite of the case in Europe. Moreover, TOYOTA has a lot of political reasons to not invest in a diesel hybrid but play the US gasoline game.

 

Michelle Vadeboncoeur took a photo of the EPA sticker on the 2010 and found:

Also confirmed in this posting by "ManualOnly:"
http://priuschat.com/forums/2010-toyota-prius/52478-japanese-mag-snoop-prius-2009-a.html#post693680

Also described in this Toyota press release.

I wonder if the "X" in '2ZR-FXE' may be a place holder for Atkinson cycle?

The reason I ask is the Japanese press release gives it a maximum 98 hp, considerably less than the 134 hp listed for the 2ZR-FE.

All of the "2ZR" series are dual, variable valve engines with separate intake and exhaust valve timing. My understanding is the "3ZR" series will add the variable opening to the variable valve timing. These "3ZR" engines will be awesome.

Bob Wilson

 

Laughing for photographing the emissions label? That's the most important thing.

Yes, the "X" suffix is for the Atkinson cycle. This confirms that the new 2ZR-FXE Prius engine is the Atkinson-cycle version of the new 2ZR-FE Corolla engine. The old 1NZ-FXE Prius engine is the Atkinson-cycle version of the 1NZ-FE Yaris engine (see Toyota NZ engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and List of Toyota engines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). The Valvematic (variable valve lift) technology is indicated by an "A" in the suffix and is available in the 3ZR-FAE engine (see Toyota ZR engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). 3ZR-FAE engine gets 6% more MPG, 10% more HP, and 1% more Nm in comparison to the 3ZR-FE engine (see the Japanese launch of the 3ZR-FAE engine). So, the Valvematic technology, when available, will add another 3 MPG or so to the MPG of the Prius as well as plenty of more throttle response.





I wonder how many years the new generation Prius will be up for. I'm guessing not more than two, with the plug-in Priuses being imminent. At that point we may also see an "A" suffix in the engine, indicating the Valvematic technology. So, hold on to your first or second generation Priuses until the fourth (not the soon-to-be-available third) generation Priuses come out. This will save you $$,$$$ and from pulling quite a few hair strands from your head when the plug-in Priuses, with a Valvematic engine as well, are made available in a matter of a couple of years.

 

Expect to pay about $35K to $40K for what you describe. Or you could just get a 2010 for maybe $22.5K to 34.5K this year.
I'll go with the 2010.

Of course when the PHEV Prius comes something else better will be just around the corner so don't buy that either.

 

patsparks, all new TOYOTA engines built after 2012 or so will have the Valvematic technology. So, you won't be paying an extra premium for that standard technology.

The point is that if you already have a Prius that works, you would be wasting your money for a 2010 upgrade. And if you don't have one, the smartest way to go is to buy a 2009 Prius after the 2010 Priuses are available. You will be getting almost the same car but at a deep discount of around $5,000 or so.

 

You also mentioned plug in.
I like the added features in the 2010 and I'm pretty sure you would be able to trade in for the 2012 or 2013 model in a few years. I also had a working Camry before I bought the Prius, I have no doubt you had a working car before you bought your current car too. I see you haven't moved on a hybrid yet, is that because you keep waiting for the better one coming out in a couple of years?

I think a smart Toyota Motors will be winding back inventory right now in preparation for the arrival of the 2010 model, Like you can have a stab at the demand for Prius over the next few months I think Toyota will have a pretty good handle on the demand for a model about to retire and I expect stocks of 2009 to be pretty low by 2010 release date. Yes there will be some bargains but I would prefer a 2010 release design in my garage for the next 5 years than a 2004 design. Yep, you can get the 2009 for cheap but in the end it is really a 2004 made later and a couple minor refinements.

 

It's true that the gigantic Li-ion battery needed by a plug-in, such as one similar in size to that of Chevy Volt's, would cost $$$$ - $$$$$. Perhaps they could also produce light plug-in models with small and cheap NiMH batteries good for a couple of miles for economy customers.

My story is that I was going back and forth between a Barcelona Red 2009 Corolla XLE with navigation and a Barcelona Red 2008 Prius Package 5 last year around this time. I ended up buying the Corolla because it was almost $5k cheaper and looked better and it was a brand-new model. (Below picture from Wikipedia is my actual car in LA.)



Now, I somehow regret the purchase. Prius would be a much better investment because (a) I could have got more off on MSRP on the Prius than the $500 I got for Corolla (b) 2009 Prius is the exact same car yet it costs a lot more (c) Prius has better depreciation (d) you save more on gas.

What I had before was a veteran 1985 Corolla. Although it's a decent car, what I don't like about the 2009 Corolla is that they wanted to make it a grandmother car; so, they took all the nimble feeling from it, which resulted in a very slow-steering, very soft-riding car. This not only took all the fun out of the car but also took all the driver's confidence out. Prius is not that sporty either but at least you get the great MPG and some high-tech features, like back-up camera.

Now, TOYOTA gives $1,500 off MSRP on a 2009 Corolla. So, I've already lost that much. On top of that add dealer mark-down for a trade-in. On top of that, in the Golden State of California that I live in, you don't get the sales tax deducted for the trade-in value. In other words, even if the dealer gives you the full MSRP on the trade-in, you still lose the entire sales tax, which is another $2,000.

So, the moral of the story is the best way to save money is to keep your car in good running condition and replace it only when it's necessary. Everytime you drive off a new car off a dealer's lot, consider at least $5k gone. More so in states like California.

In the future I might get a 2010 Prius or a 2012 Prius or perhaps some other car, or keep my Corolla, depending on my economical situation. But if you are going to get a 2010 Prius yourself, I would recommend waiting a little while until they start giving company rebates and incentives off MSRP -- which happens about a year after the car first appears in the dealer lots.

 

My challenge is a little harder. I've got a 2003, NHW11 model and am still getting acceptable performance, 52.3 MPG combined (original EPA 52/45 MPG.) This is in contrast to the current EPA rating of 41 MPG combined and user reported, 44-45 MPG:

Perfect is the enemy of good enough. -- Russian proverb
​

More can be done with exhaust energy recovery in the 2010 but I really like the electric driven water pump. But I don't think we know enough about engine and automated vehicle management systems. The NHW11 turns out to be a good 'mule' to investigate some of these technologies. So I'm looking at these options:

• NHW11 - ain't broke and still interesting
• NHW20 - excellent price-performance ratio
• 2010 - much improved performance(*)

I came into my Prius when an accident took away our '91 Camry and as a general rule, we run our vehicles until 'the wheels fall off.' So I'm inclined to keep the NHW11 but the 2010 Prius is very tempting.

Bob Wilson

* - With a combined 50 MPG, this is a 20% improvement, well beyond the 2-3% likely from my experiment with an NHW11 'mule.'

 

Don't quote European cars with Europeans present. I don't know where you got those numbers from for the Corolla, but they are wrong.

The only official site for fuel consumption data in the UK is VCACarFuelData.org.uk. Toyota do not sell a Corolla in the UK - they sell the Auris, which is smaller. The rest of Europe uses litres per 100km (L/100km) as their measurement unit. (So do we, officially, but makers are allowed to, and customarily do, use a 'supplementary unit' of miles per Imperial gallon.)

Do not back-calculate a European figure from miles per Imperial gallon to miles per U.S gallon and compare with EPA figures. The tests are entirely different and not comparable. Instead only compare EPA with EPA figures, and EU New European Driving Cycle numbers against other NEDC numbers.

The closest size model to a Prius is the Avensis. With a six-speed manual gearbox coupled to the 2.0 litre D4-D engine, in the T2 'grade' (package), these are the numbers:

Urban: 6.6 L/100km (42.8mpg Imperial)
Extra-Urban: 4.3 L/100km (65.7mpg Imperial)
Combined: 5.1 L/100km (55.4mpg Imperial)
CO2 emissions: 135g/km

For comparison, these are the Prius NHW20 numbers:

Urban: 5.0 L/100km (56.5 mpg)
Extra-Urban: 4.2 L/100km (67.3 mpg)
Combined: 4.3 L/100km (65.7 mpg)
CO2 emissions: 104g/km

Additional factors you have to take into account: diesel has about 10% more energy per litre than petrol. In the UK, Ultra Low Sulphur Petrol and ULS Diesel are taxed at the same rate, 50.35 pence per litre. Diesel is currently anywhere from about 10% to 15% more expensive than petrol.

There are some diesels that beat a 2009 Prius on fuel economy (on raw fuel consumption by litre, not by energy content); they are all 'mini' or 'supermini' class vehicles, two sizes smaller than a Prius. Ford's Focus ECOmotion manages the same number. If you factor in diesel's additional energy density, only the Ford Fiesta ECOmotion, VW Polo BlueMotion, and Seat Ibiza Ecomotion manage lower fuel consumption and the Mini Cooper D equals it.

In my view, diesel is not the answer.

 

Remember that low RPM throttle response is not very important for HSD. You already have good response from the electric motor, so the ICE has the luxury of running at efficient speeds. This removes some of the gains from fancy valve timing. In other words, you optimize the valve timing for a narrow range, and then use HSD to keep the engine in that area most of the time.

Tom

 

I'm not sure what VVTi on the exhaust achieves that the EGR doesn't within emissions limits.

 

Folks come to buy for many reasons including loss of an earlier ride. Keeping an '85 Corolla on the road for 23 years is impressive. We kept our '91 Camry running for only 14 years before an accident took it away.

I too had a some buyer's remorse but it didn't last long. You have to make your best guess at the time and see it through ... at least long enough for lessons learned.

If you someday join the Prius club, good. If not, that is OK too. But there is a certain amount of insight gained from having a Prius in-hand that can't really be appreciated when it is a theory, not a fact. It is one reason why hybrid-skeptics are so easily become 'fish in a barrel.'

So understand I have no opinion about your decision process. It is what worked for you. It is a shame you didn't consider a low-mileage, used Prius, like I did but that is history.

GOOD LUCK!
Bob Wilson

 

Mike Dimmick,

The numbers I posted are from the TOYOTA Europe site and they are correct:

Welcome to Toyota Europe portal page. Select your country

But you are right that I shouldn't have compared apples to oranges by comparing US and EC MPGs.

Note that Corolla has more MPG than Auris because Aurius, being a conventional hatchback, has bad aerodynamics (larger Cd).

When you compare EC numbers to EC numbers, the only TOYOTA that beats the Prius is the diesel Yaris. Yaris beats Prius by about 5%, that is about 3 MPG. In some European countries, ultra-low-sulphur diesel fuel is still a little cheaper than unleaded gasoline. So, for such countries there is little reason to pay the $$$$ - $$$$$ premium for a hybrid synergy drive to get better MPG, with many diesels with comparable and better MPGs available, yet much cheaper. In fact, Prius is not even sold in such countries.

The new MPG standards in Europe, comparable to the new US/EPA MPG standards, are the 2004/3/EC directives:

FUEL CONSUMPTION TEST (Directive 80/1268/EEC as amended by 2004/3/EC)

The new test has been agreed internationally and provides results that are more representative of actual average on-road fuel consumption than previous tests. There are two parts: an urban and an extra-urban cycle. The test cycle is the same as that used to determine the official exhaust emission classification for the model of vehicle in question.

The cars tested have to be run in and must have been driven for at least 1,800 miles (3,000 kilometres) before testing.

Urban cycle
The urban test cycle is carried out in a laboratory at an ambient temperature of 20°C to 30°C on a rolling road from a cold start, i.e. the engine has not run for several hours. The cycle consists of a series of accelerations, steady speeds, decelerations and idling. Maximum speed is 31 mph (50 km/h), average speed 12 mph (19 km/h) and the distance covered is 2.5 miles (4 km). The cycle is shown as Part One in the diagram below.

Extra-urban cycle
This cycle is conducted immediately following the urban cycle and consists of roughly half steady-speed driving and the remainder accelerations, decelerations, and some idling. Maximum speed is 75 mph (120 km/h), average speed is 39 mph (63 km/h) and the distance covered is 4.3 miles (7 km). The cycle is shown as Part Two in the diagram below.

Combined Fuel Consumption Figure
The combined figure presented is for the urban and the extra-urban cycle together. It is therefore an average of the two parts of the test, weighted by the distances covered in each part.

 

Internal EGR is for reducing the combustion temperature by injecting the inert, incombustible exhaust gas into the combustion chamber in order to reduce engine pinging/knock and NO_x emissions. It doesn't directly improve the fuel economy. It cannot be used with a cold engine as it would immediately stall the engine. Circulation of exhaust around the engine is not the same as internal EGR. Call it external EGR if you like. The only purpose of it is to decrease the warm-up time, which indirectly increases the fuel economy. Obviously, it is not used with a warm engine, since the cooling system is already trying hard to keep the engine cool.

Here is how the dual VVT-i works on the TOYOTA 2ZR-FE engine. The primary function of the exhaust VVT-i is to reduce pumping losses (the huge friction losses resulting from pumping the air in and out of the cylinders) for considerably better fuel economy by increasing the overlap between when the intake and exhaust valves are closed. The result is a significant contribution to the 10% improvement in fuel economy of the third-generation Prius over the second generation.

 

That is a fine chart for an Otto cycle engine and it probably somewhat applicable. Although the principles should be similar, the Atkinson cycle throws an additional twist in the extended intake timing to allow part of the charge to be pushed back into the manifold. Also, the 2ZR-FXE having a cooled EGR loop may not use the exhaust valve timing controlled, hot EGR. This remains an area to be explored.

Bob Wilson

 

Back in the 90's the 3 pioneer producers ( new terminology I'm proposing in view of the soon-to-be expanded field of vendors ) Toyota, Ford and Honda each chose a technology that they could develop and implement.

Honda in no way has the resources of Toyota or Ford ( at that time ). It chose a very very efficient BAS hybrid while Toyota and Ford went the parallel hybrid route, figuratively and technologically. The BAS system to which Honda is now married is very very good in smaller lighter vehicles. It cannot be scaled much higher than the HCH as shown by the quick retreat of the HAH when the TCH arrived. But Honda is married to its IMA. The THS and FHS are very very similar and are most capable in midsized vehicles from the Prius to TCH / FFH / FEH and then to the much larger HH. Until recently it frankly was too expensive to be put into a smaller less costly vehicle like the Yaris.

This is one of the key benefits of Honda's IMA...it's low cost / high efficiency ratio. It can be added to a Fit at $17000 to create the Insight II at $18900. Thus Honda can sell a good volume of these less expensive hybrids that are far better in fuel economy than a non-hybrid vehicle of the same size and still keep the cost in line for the frugal buyer.

I wouldn't compare the Insight II so much to the Prius as I would compare it to the Matrix/Vibe or Mazda 3 or Focus all of which it will annihilate in fuel economy and at a lower price!!!!!

 

My nephew in Europe has a new Auris. I have a new Corolla. They are very similar but the Auris is not an hatchback version of the Corolla because it has a quite different body. The Auris is also smaller than the Corolla. They do share a lot though. In fact our trims even ended up having identical alloy wheels.

The Auris could be best considered as a smaller version of the Matrix sold in US.