Congrats to the President

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by efusco, Nov 3, 2004.

  1. KMO

    KMO Member

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    This, in a nutshell, explains why the Democrats are doomed. A significant minority of US citizens are living in a faith-based bubble, like Bush.

    If any evidence arises violating their world view, then they ignore it. If someone tries to draw it to their attention, they denounce the person presenting the evidence as a liar. They have absolute faith that their country and its leaders are the good guys, therefore anyone who suggests otherwise must, obviously, be lying and therefore is morally dubious.

    How do you escape that logical loop?

    The Republicans have got this sussed - they know that all they have to do is justify their actions, however outrageous, by wrapping it in patriotism or religion, and the blinkers attached to their followers will automatically denouce any opposition. Since they figured this out, they've almost totally locked down the red states.

    This huge disparity showed up nicely in the polling of Bush supporters:

    47% believe Iraq had WMD; 25% believe he had a major programme.
    17% think the Duelfer report concluded Iraq had WMD; 38% a programme.

    So, many saw the report but disbelieve it (presumably they have some better evidence - maybe they should have handed it over to the investigators). And many seem to have either been misled or mislead themselves over what it said.

    75% of Bush supporters believe that Iraq was providing "substantial†support to Al Qaeda, and 20% believe that Iraq was directly involved in September 11th. And 63% believe that clear evidence of a link has been found! Where did they get that from? Presumably from Cheney's endless repetition of it - it must be true, or he wouldn't have said it, eh? And the media rarely pressured him on this assertion - they don't seem to have figured out how to counter politicians who lie so baldfacedly, and the Republicans have spotted this - the bigger the lie, the harder it is to call. The 9/11 commission asked him to present any evidence he had for these assertions, but he didn't provide any.

    All these "misperceptions" even mount for the President's policies. Of Bush supporters:

    69% think he supports the Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban Treaty
    72% think he supports the land mine treaty
    51% think he supports the Kyoto protocol
    53% think he supports the International Criminal Court

    He doesn't support any of those of course, but a majority of Bush supporters favoured each of them.
     
  2. rflagg

    rflagg Member

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    You might find this read interesting:

    http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=389&row=0

    Oh, and they released the "rest" of OBL's tape today. CNN's original "transcript" showed something like 600 words, when the transcript from al-jazeera showed something like 2,300 words. Damned liberal media.

    -m.
     
  3. Danny

    Danny Admin/Founder
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    I am of the personal opinion that this election came down to more people not wanting to change horses in the middle of the race, so they'd rather stay with the guy they know as long as we are in Iraq.

    I was suprised by the # of people around my office saying that's why they voted Bush - they didn't like him, but Kerry didn't offer anything that swayed them away from him.

    I am, again, very impressed by the members of this board for turning to logical discussion versus the lowest common denominator - flaming. That's not something that you can find easily on the Internet anymore. Just read Fark and other large discussion sites and you'll see how childish discussions like this can become very quickly.

    Thank you to everyone who has participated in this discussion.
     
  4. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    I don't think the results were due to one or two simple issues.

    Group 1-
    1)Moralists--anti-gay, anti-abortion, anti-embryo use for stem cells. The evangelicals came out in droves.
    2)Pro-war--I think this still stems from some false believe that the democrats would just lay down and let the rest of the world walk all over us.
    3)Die Hard republicans--not going to go against the party despite any proof showing problems. The majority of these seem to hold the belief that the end justifies the means.
    4)The fearful--Lots of people remember Bush's reaction to 9/11 (which started pretty well) and are afraid that any change could bring something bad again. Fear is a VERY powerful motivator.
    5)Suburban/Home Moms--clearly these women could relate much better to to Bush's wife than Kerry's.
    6)Folks who focus more on thier private life than on the US or world as a whole...in particular as it relates to taxes.

    Group 2-[/]
    1)See the war and general isolationist vison of the current powers that be as detrimental to the long term future of the US.
    2)Social Liberals--a much smaller and less organized group than the evangelicals. In particular the young vote.
    3)Environmentalist/longer term visionaries seeing moves such as many parts of the "Patriot Act" as having great potential for future abuse and restrictions of our rights.


    I think group 1 is much larger in this country. Also Group 1 is more organized. The youth vote was pitiful--less than 20% turn out. Seems there's nothing that'll get them to the polls.

    I probably missed a couple of key things in both groups. The NRA folks, the small business folks, etc. But in reality I think that most of those people will have voted their hearts and probably fell into one of the major groups above too.

    What really shocks me, as someone who grew up in a very republican home is that I was taught that republicans, at their roots, are constitutional conservatives. The don't want the constitution significantly altered and they want it strictly interpreted. Yet we see the current republican/conservative government wanting to impose a new amendment that ristricts human rights, they want to create laws that encroach on every US citizen's civil right to privacy. And they do it all out of fear and power. I'm dumfounded.

    It's a little hard for me to express how dejected I've been feeling. I have 2 5 year olds and a 3 month old at home and I can't envision a significant shift toward a more open government for at least the next 12-16 years. If ANWR gets drilled and we don't make significant efforts toward the environment and we continue to be isolationists and confrontational with the rest of the world I wonder what, exactly, my kids will have to deal with when they get out of school. Will they have the opportunity to safely travel in Europe or Asia? Will military duty become manditory b/c of our need for warm bodies to support our occupations in all the countries we've decided to invade b/c we didn't like the way their goverment worked or thought they might be a threat to us someday?

    Will they be free to criticize their goverment in public or will they be deemed threats to the government for thier thinking...ala McCarthy?

    I hope I'm over reacting, I will work to prevent all this, I pray that Bush will take a bit more moderate tact since he no longer has to satisfy his 'base'. But the influx of republicans to congress with mandates from their states to push through the conservative agenda will pressure him and others to make those changes.

    I see the supreme court shifting dramatically to conservative. Roe will almost certainly be reversed. Gays will likely be set back decades. The up side is that constitutional conservatives on the bench will likely put the clamps on things like the Patriot act that are so blatently unconsitutional.

    But I swear I'm trying to be optimistic. The sun'll come up tomorrow...
     
  5. VARedDevil

    VARedDevil New Member

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    All this gloom and doom for the future of America is a natural reaction to not having a particular candidtate that one feels aligns with their beliefs. Based on the results of election, the Dems platform was not aligned with the core values of the average American. We know that evironmental issues are important, but obviously that wasn't a paramount concern with the voters. Unfortunately, the environment, in order of precendence always comes out short. Will there be a draft? I don't really think so, but there will be the expense of increasing the end strength of the military from it's "peacetime" level to a more ramped up reactionary force. The military, at it's current strength, cannot maintain a sustained two-theater war, not without substantial growth. So we either increase the end-strength or become a force that can only support one major conflict at a time...which in my view, makes us more vulnerable.
     
  6. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    No direct offense, I know you didn't mean anything bad by that sentence, but that is just one of the most annoying things for me to hear...particularly from politicians. "Americans want" "The people feel"

    As if we're all of one mind or that there is such a thing as an 'average American'. There isn't an 'average' nor are we of one mind. The environment isn't something everyone things about or can appreciate the way we can something more immediate. Unfortunately there are a lot of voters who have a very narrow view of the world--they think about their job status, their taxes, their retirement, their health care....And that's not to say it's just lower income or less intelligent people, there's something about the immediacy of those issues that makes them desirable to vote for.

    I told one of my collegues who was amazed I voted for Kerry...what was the first thing he brought up? Not morals, not the war, not terrorism...taxes--he asked me if "I wanted to just give my money to the liberals". I told him I'd happily part with a good portion of my wealth for a better world and a better future. Then the other issues came out.

    I'm listening to Bush right now giving his press conference. He reinforced that "He doesn't accept that the whole world shouldn't be free and democratic". He doesn't accept it. He doesn't respect other cultures enough to accept that they don't want, aren't ready for and should have us impose OUR culture and ideals and beliefs upon them. He thinks that because he believes something is best that it therefore must be best for everyone and that he has a duty to impose that upon them...unbelievable self-rightousness. When do we go into China to impose democracy on them? Will we finish up with the Middle East first? I'm sure Saudi Arabia is wide open for us to come in and make them a democracy.

    I'm trying to focus on the fiscal things that I do think will be positive, but dang it's hard to accept his cultural narrow mindedness.
     
  7. Danny

    Danny Admin/Founder
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    The "lack" of youth vote and it's coverage in the press really gets to me. The statistic is that the same % of young voters (18-29) came out in 2004 as they did in 2000. That is totally misleading.

    #1, that % is of the whole population voting, not of the 18-29 entire registered population.

    #2, the registered population voting this year was higher than it ever has been before.

    That just means that young voters still made up 20% of the whole group voting this year. So if in 2000, 100 people voted, 20 of them were 18-29. In 2004, if 400 people voted, that means that 80 of them were 18-29. Same %s, but different turnout.

    I'd like to see the raw #s comparing 2000 & 2004 for this group, because it's not fair to pawn a loss off on a group of people that showed up to vote and just happened to show up in the same droves that the 60 year old+ evanglical Christians showed up in (%-wise with the group's population).

    And for some reason "pundits" believe that young voters are overwhelmingly Democratic - I would say that at least in my area, a very small portion of them are. Wherever they got that 86% exit poll # 18-29 year olds supporting Kerry was on crack or something.

    I do believe that our generation does not feel like we should have to stand in a line for anything. We buy movie tickets online or at the theater automated machine to avoid the lines, we order pizza online, most of us don't even have a home land-line phone because it "ties" us down. For some reason we are constantly on the move and standing in a line to vote for something that many people believe doesn't directly affect them is not attractive to us. If the #s are indeed down (I am sure they are not what they should have been), I am willing to bet that it was because they saw the line, thought about the new Grand Theft Auto game sitting at home and how they didn't have any classes that day, turned around and left.

    Judging from the 4 hour line at the polling location 3 blocks from my house, I sadly admit that I would have done the same in 2000.

    If you want young people to vote, changes have to be made to our voting system to make it easier, more interactive, and more immediate.
     
  8. pjo1966

    pjo1966 New Member

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    This summarizes my feelings about Bush in a nutshell... His way is the only way. His culture is the only culture. His religion is the only religion. His moral beleiefs are the only moral beliefs. It a very simple, narrow-minded way of viewing the world.
     
  9. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    See Danny, you just confirmed, kids today are just a bunch of lazy slobs!! ;-)

    I agree, we need to have some system to allow online voting established in the future. I just shouldn't be all that hard. It could be based upon IP address confirmation, mailed out password and login codes so they'd be unique, etc.
     
  10. Wolfman

    Wolfman New Member

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    Too bad that the "younger" voters feel that way. I can think of few things that are as important as getting out to vote, regardless of the line. There's alot more to election day, than voting for the President. Local and state ballots are cast at the same time, and these are always directly influenced by the majority vote. GTA will still be waiting at the house to play, once the civic duty is completed. Election day is once every two years.

    While I am not in that 18 to 29 age group, I'm still plenty impatient. Here, we have early voting. I chose to go in during the middle of the day, second day after the early voting period started. I was in and out in less than 30 minutes.
     
  11. KMO

    KMO Member

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    I think Danny's right - demographics are on the left's side to some extent. Even though individuals tend to become more right-wing as they get older, the next generation seems unlikely to ever have a problem with gay rights - the pensioners that are still disgusted by the 1960s will die soon. And I'm not convinced that being anti-abortion will be a vote winner for many more years either, especially if Roe v Wade is overturned - I suspect many women don't really believe that abortion will be illegal in a couple of years; it will stir them into opposition.

    However, I see the militaristic and low tax mentality holding for some time. Unless Bush pushes it just a bit too far. A draft would awaken a lot of folks, and if Bush keeps increasing the massive inequities of US society, the poor have got to fight back eventually. Haven't they?

    It might help if the Democrats spoke up for the poor a bit more. The first real, moving speech I heard in the campaign about their plight was Edwards' concession speech. :(
     
  12. bruceha_2000

    bruceha_2000 Senior Member

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    Sure I am, you'll just have to do 2 very long legs of the triangle rather than one. You have a Prius, it will probably take the same amount of gas as your old car going the more direct route. OK, maybe not. :) Let me know if you change your mind :)

    Earlier you said it would take some time to implement your plan. Are you still expecting to be in VA the 2nd weekend in June 2005? I'll buy you lunch in Ashburn.
     
  13. rflagg

    rflagg Member

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    Since it's $551 per person per application for residency (then later a thousand per person, then proof of 6 months of finances to cover living expenses when you actually cross over) - we're not going to put our application until January 2005. Expected wait time on that is about 1-1.5 years, then we can actually move over there - of course, then it takes a full 3 years of living in Canada before you are considered a full citizen, as well.

    So uh, short answer, yeah, I'll still be here then barring any unforseen circumstances! :)

    -m.
     
  14. VARedDevil

    VARedDevil New Member

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    Actually, I have to apologize, I paraphrased an individual's statement when he was interviewed by NBC yesterday on what the Democrats have to do to get into those "red" areas. He stated that the Dems needed to get more in touch with "mainstream America" not the average American. I'm sorry that I can't remember his name, but he was someone that was up in the Democrat organization...I think he was the head of the Dem party awhile back. Apparently, Mr. Kerry was warned by Pres. Clinton to promote his stance on being against gay marriages ... this individual felt he lost a lot of votes because of his not promoting that and going with the more "traditional values" of "mainstream Americans".

    I agree that we don't have the right to force democracy on a country that isn't ready to handle it or want it. If that was the case, the whole world would be a democracy. Like I said, I definitely don't agree with everything this president has done or said.
     
  15. heliotropehead

    heliotropehead New Member

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    I voted, went to work & then went home to play the new Grand Theft Auto!
    We're not all lazy slobs!
    :)
     
  16. Danny

    Danny Admin/Founder
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    I don't think it's laziness as much as it is the need for instant gratification. From video on demand to broadband internet to online course registration and even online classes, we're pretty much used to being able to make our own schedule and have it be at our fingertips when we are ready for it.

    I'm not saying that those are the reasons for any lack of youth turnout, nor am I saying that there was a lack of turnout. I guess I'm just trying to provide insight as to why we do some of the things we do, and perhaps voting is one of those things that the youth feel needs to be changed to adapt to them. If you look around you, society really is changing & adapting to our age group moreso than they have had to in the past.

    The bottom line is that voting should be easy. It should be a more secure version of an online poll. Go ahead and say "Well, voting should be something you want to do, something you give up other things to do." No it shouldn't. Voting is a Constitutional right. Voting is not a privilege, it is a basic fundamental right that democracy provides us.

    I get so tired sometimes of people harping that "Voting's a privilege, Voting's a privilege. Don't take it lightly." No, it's not a privilege, it's a right afforded to citizens of this country that have the privilege to live in it. There's a difference.

    No one, whether they be 18 or 78, should have to stand in a line for 3+ hours to utilize their right. If someone would run simply on the platform of focusing on voting reform, I would vote for them no matter what their social values were.

    Something needs to be done, and it needs to be done in the next 4 years. We had 4 years to prepare for this election and very little changed. People are scared of online voting - well, paper/electronic voting doesn't seem to be bringing America together to choose our leaders, so why not try?

    Sorry if I incoherently rant, but I strongly believe that our system needs election reform on all levels before any of our other issues can be solved.

    And one final thing while I'm on my soapbox, from my position as a 20-something voter and my knowledge of my generations's social values, through research both formally & informally, I can strongly say that my voting block (18-29) just strongly believes that most of our country is off it's rocker.

    We are the first generation to not really understand the big deal about racial differences, over 85% of us believe in gay rights and the right to marry for all, we are more focused on the group than we are on the individual. I also believe that you will see the main differences between the 2 parties of my generation be based much more on economic policy than cultural values. Because of all of these beliefs we have, we also for some reason believe that we can wait out the storm and "wait our turn" to bring about cultural/political change.

    I truly believe that this group is going to be one of the most reform-minded, socially & politically active generations in history. We just need to realize that our time can be now if we get out from in front of the XBOXs, off our damned blogs and DO SOMETHING.
     
  17. pjo1966

    pjo1966 New Member

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    Danny for President!
     
  18. heliotropehead

    heliotropehead New Member

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    lol

    "Vote Danny and receive a free Prius"
     
  19. bruceha_2000

    bruceha_2000 Senior Member

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    Case in point. A co-worker (who is upper income and intelligent) told me she would probably vote for Kerry, but she wouldn't mind if Bush won. I asked why and listed a couple of things I see as major problems with Bush. "I like (rubs thumb and 1st two fingers together)*".

    * money

    I'll probably piss some people off with this single word, send in the flames: Taliban

    That position has been the core of our foreign policy for a long time. It is now increasingly being turned inward.
     
  20. Sun__Tzu

    Sun__Tzu New Member

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    I find it interesting that the Red States are the ones afraid of gays. Yet the largest gay populations are in SF and NYC, two of the Bluest states you'll find.

    They also voted on fear and terrorism, yet the 2 attacks occured in 2 very Blue areas. Yes, the Pentagon is technically in VA, but the Northern VA area neighboring DC is quite Blue.

    NYC, LA, Chicago and DC are probably the 4 most likely terrorist targets, given their respective size and symbolic value. Yet all 4 cities voted overwhelmingly for Democrats. I guess those stupid city slickers all have a death wish.

    Finally, a word on tax-and-spend liberalism. Personally, I wouldn't mind if the Federal government abolished all taxes tomorrow, and we shifted to a state-focused tax/government system. Red states would be in for a rude awakening: a vast majority of Red states receive FAR more money in Federal aid than they pay in Federal taxes. Aside from FL and TX, many Red states would literally starve to death without the cash cows of CA, IL, NY and New England feeding them tax dollars. Welfare state indeed.
     
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