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Core beliefs to "conservative" or "liberal"?

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by Jack Kelly, Feb 18, 2006.

  1. Jack Kelly

    Jack Kelly New Member

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    In this time of seemingly palpable political polarization, what is it, exactly, that's dividing us so passionately? Is it one "coherent" socio-political ideology vs. a very different one? If so, is there any legitimacy to identifying those ideologies as "liberal and "conservative"?

    Or is it more accurate these days simply to call those who like and support President George W. Bush "conservatives" and everyone else "liberals"?

    Or: are we watching those ideologies actually morphing before our very eyes, from, say, the conservatives of the limited-government, balanced-budget days of Dwight Eisenhower in 1959 to the powerful-government, deficits-are-OK era of Reagan/Bush, starting just two decades after Ike? And the liberals of the "government-help-the-downtrodden" days of Roosevelt through Johnson to the Clintonian era of less government help and balanced budgets?

    To put it another way, are government "intrusion"/"protection" and deficit spending the two hallmark issues of the last 40-50 years? If so, what does that have to do with being liberal or conservative?

    Or is it more accurate to say that there was so much social ferment in the 60's and 70's that lots of new issues arose, involving ethnicity, gender and the "rights" of Joe Everyperson, and the use/protection of natural resources, alongside the traditional issues?

    Does being liberal or conservative simply mean keeping track of where one or another party stands on an ever-shifting, eclectic set of issues, having almost nothing to do with "core values" or ideology?

    Or is it yet even more pertinent to say that the American two-party system has evolved (perhaps unconsciously) largely toward the "purpose" of suppressing the extremes of ALL ideology? Resulting, many would say, in ideology-less "mush" and/or gridlock?

    Older definitions of "conservative" and "liberal" revolved around ideas such as:

    1. * people are stained with Original Sin at birth, and government must constrain their evil impulses (conservative) VS.

    * people are either born "good" or at least "neutral" (and thus shaped more than anything by environmental influences (liberal)

    2. * the highest purpose of government is to protect and enforce the established order of authority, laws protecting property rights and inherited wealth, and social stability (conservative) VS.

    * as opportunities for individual development expand, through education and the safeguarding of "rights", social and political change is inevitable and relatively harmless, even at the expense of tolerable social turmoil (liberal)

    3. * those who have earned or otherwise accumulated wealth have the rights both to keep most of it, and to wield political power commensurate with a higher level of achivevement (conservative) VS.

    * to guard against possibly revolutionary mob rule or permanent class hatreds, the rich must be forced to relinquish some wealth in order to establish a humane "floor" of living standards for the poor (liberal)

    There is obvious overlap between (2) and (3), but a difference in emphasis on the matter of how "proactive" government should be in these matters.

    Or---bottom line---is most of this a smokescreen, and is the bottom-line issue, as it always has been, class warfare: the "haves" VS. the "have-nots", with many other issues more or less important in proportion to how they affect this one?

    In the 2004 campaign, Republicans accused Democrats of inciting class warfare.
    Democrats called on Bush to be a uniter, not a divider. Was everyone talking about the same divisions?
     
  2. Schmika

    Schmika New Member

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    I agree that it seems the definitions of 'liberal" and "conservative" have been lost in the cacaphony of name calling and demegoguing.

    I can't answer your specific this vs. that because I don't agree with them. I'll have to think about why exactly though.
     
  3. jfschultz

    jfschultz Active Member

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    I'm not sure that there really is an ideological shift here. The Eisenhower administration was the last before the greatly expanded social program of the Johnson administration and the ramp up of military adventures. With Reagan there was a massive military spending that broke the back of the Soviet Union trying to keep up and with Bush there were major military adventures without a compensating backing off of domestic spending. The Clintonian era "benefited" from the Republican victories in Congress that checked the domestic program and the lack of major military adventures.

    The problem that resulted from the Republican Congress is after an initial reduction of pork, these special benefits have expanded to the point that it is worse than with the Democrats.

    The definition of conservative and liberal can vary depended on the specific area that it is being considered. Number 1 above is a expression of the Theological conservative/liberal divide. The overlap between 2 and 3 comes from their being aspects of fiscal conservative/liberal divide. There is also a social conservative/liberal divide seen in issues such as abortion and pornography. From what I have seen, at least among whites, those who are theologically conservative tend to be social and fiscal conservatives. However, this is not a given. Being conservative in one of these areas does not mean one is conservative in the other areas.

    Dr. Francis Schaeffer hit on what is probably the most consistent divide is in the individual's view of ultimate reality:

    1) A personal infinite creator God of the Judeo-Christian tradition. Islam is related to some extent that Allah is an impersonal infinite creator God.

    2) A naturalistic/humanist view of matter and energy.

    Position number 1 implies that there is a revealed absolute standard of right and wrong. But don't be surprised to find many "pro-lifers" don't comprehend the concept of a "personal infinite creator God." Position number 2 leaves right and wrong to an individual's (or society's) understanding and a distrust of those who would claim a differing view.
     
  4. skruse

    skruse Senior Member

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    What continues to amaze is that, given the above understanding, any perspective can invoke political expediency, claim the cloak of "conservative" or "liberal," and race forcefully forward in pure greed.

    The Wall Street Journal and other well-edited publications have tried defining terms from time to time. Despite our best efforts "words mean what I want them to mean when I want them to."

    We are "polarized" because we frequently take single issue perspectives and expand the feelings and perspective to encompass everything. This does not work for ourselves and others.

    We need more Quality Circle techniques and concensus building.