Crime Prevention Tip of the Month.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Oct 21 2007, 11:23 AM) [snapback]528459[/snapback]</div>

Absolutely not, you assume that I think all of them are drunks. But I KNOW that many of them are. You assume that your money will go to good use and that is it doesn't then you consciounes is still clear... What I'm telling you is that while you walk away unawares as to the ultimate result of your 'charity' I can tell you without a doubt that at least several times per day, just in my medium size town ER, that we spend thousands of dollars those who are drunks.

My point, had you bothered to pay attention, is that those who are in need of help can get it from organizations that exist specifically to help those who truly need and want it. And that donating money to those is a much wiser way to assure that those who need the help get the help....including the drunks...but in such a way that the potential benefit is greatest and the likelyhood of greater cost to society is the least.

I'll tell you that I disagree about the term 'most'...I think 'most' do have problems with drugs and/or alcohol, but it does vary by location. The majority of homeless who are not on alcohol or drugs have mental illness...and those also need help...much better provided by an organization equipt to do so than from a couple bucks dropped in a hat.

And I never implied that (you should brush up on your reading comprehension...unless you're just trying to be contrary). But those with problems with drugs and alcohol need help provided differently than those who are simply homeless due to financial reasons, and likewise those with mental health issues need help differently than either of those two. That said, I can tell you that some drunks don't deserve shelter...they decline help when offered, they take advantage of 'the system' at every turn, then go out and get drunk with the money they get for 'disability' and begin the process again. For those who accept help and treatment when offered but fail after a real effort I agree with you, but there are some, and not all that rarely, that have embraced their situations as alcoholics, won't take help, but expect to be cared for at every turn when drunk...and we all pick up the tab until they finally kill themselves.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Oct 21 2007, 10:42 PM) [snapback]528655[/snapback]</div>

Nor do I wish hostility Daniel, but you seem to want to take my comments and spin them in a negative way.
My point is simple. There are homeless people who sincerely need help..this makes the 3rd time I've said that in 3 posts and yet you seem to be harping at me like I don't recognize that. But there are also those who, by giving them hand outs, you are facilitating their adverse lifestyle...you are contributing to making them worse. I see those people. I have worked full time in the ER for 14 years and have seen every sort of homeless person there is. I have no ill feelings toward the homeless as a group. Indeed my close contact with those people make me all the more acutely aware of how much an organized and consistent means of providing for the needs of the homeless are necessary.
And yet, it also shows me how counterproductive and damaging it is to facilitate alcoholics by giving them alcohol... and that is exactly what you're doing when you give them money. It may not sit well to state it that way, but it is the truth. They may find other ways to get it if you don't give them money, but that isn't a rational reason to make it easier for them or to facilitate them.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Oct 22 2007, 07:52 AM) [snapback]528762[/snapback]</div>

Again (4th time I think) I do not assume 'every panhandler is an alcoholic' as you seem determined to pin on me Daniel. At the same time it is clear that many of the panhandlers ARE alcoholics or drug users or both and that giving them money is no different than giving them alcohol or drugs as it serves only to enable them. Since I cannot tell which is which I choose to never give to anyone begging on the street. If more people did that perhaps it would discourage the begging and encourage use of resources.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Oct 22 2007, 09:15 AM) [snapback]528801[/snapback]</div>

Whatever Daniel. At least 3 times you've implied and/or flat out stated that I believe that all homeless are drunks.
Not one time have you addressed my key point...that you are enabling them. Why not hand them a bottle of scotch instead of cash...it'll save them the effort of walking around the corner to the liquer store?

If you get a warm fuzzy by doing something personal for a panhandler and prefer to believe in the goodness of people and turn a blind eye to the issues of the alcohol and drug use that you're sponsoring then why not go grab a bag of groceries for them.
The answer, of course, is that it taked actual effort on your part to do that.
The point is that you get a clear conscious briefly for the guilt you feel of living a life of luxury while they are homeless...but you choose to ignore the actual facts of the situation.

I'm not looking for the last word Daniel, I'm looking for you to engage my key points in an intelligent manner instead of turning the topic into "Dr. Fusco thinks all homeless are drunks". Not once have I suggested that. Not once have you addressed my point. I'm happy to give you the last word if you can defend your practice and suggest how you believe you're doing even the slightest bit of good.

 

Didn't say or suggest that at all. But it is clear that some of those whome you give your money to will use it to buy more drugs and/or alcohol and will ultimately become a much bigger financial drain on our health and law enforcement systems in part due to your 'donation'.
My "tone" is that there are better ways to help these people who need and deserve help and that you may, indeed, be making the situation worse. I carefully outlined how that happens and even approximated the costs of your generosity to the rest of the world. Not even briefly have you acknowledged that there is an ounce of validity to what I'm saying. If there is anyone here with a 'tone' it is you Daniel...he who attacks the messenger rather than acknowledge even the most basic points of the message by suggesting that I'm hostile or have a 'tone' in my comments. Go back, just pretend none of the rest of either of our posts occured, and read objectively my very first post. What did I say? What were my points?
I'll summarize. 1) I acknowledge a problem with homelessness, 2) I support giving financial help by means of organizations designed to help them, 3) Defended why I hold that stance through my personal experiences for the past 14 years taking care of the homeless daily.

Daniel, again your own narrow perspective is blinding you. I don't just treat people who have had accidents. I tread anyone who shows up for any problem. The homeless guy with pneumonia who's never had a drink in his life is just as likely to show up as the drunk pan-handler who's been 'rolled' by a couple of kids. Not to disregard your 5 years of volunteering, but I'll put up my 14 years of daily dealing with people of all socioeconomic groups against that very narrow and brief experience of yours any day. Don't talk down to me like I don't know the 'real' homeless. I worked in Charity Hospital for 4 years as a resident... 21 shifts a month... and we took care of the indigent population of New Orleans exclusively. I went out on the street with EMS and visited the places where the indigent lived. There is no way you've had the depth, breadth and longevity of experience in this regard that I have, so don't try to use that as a way to make your point of view look superior to mine.

Again, not at all...but some of them will. So why not give ANY of them any money or scotch and instead give the money only to those organizations that will only help those deserving? Help to eliminate the panhandling altogether. You driving a Zebra or a Prius isn't going to save the earth, but it's a start. Likewise this. Don't enable anyone who panhandles, enable those who help the homeless and let's start making an impact in a fully positive way. If even 1 time in 10 your money given to a pan-handler ends up getting them drunk and run over and killed, or seriously injured is that OK with you?

Again, I'm not implying anything of the sort. But I am telling you that much of the money IS going to alcohol and in the situation it does go to alcohol the financial and health consequences of that one in 10 far exceed any good you may have done for the other 9.

The closest you've come yet to a coherent response to my points...at least now I know you're paying attention. Again, however, you're not taking into consideration the immediate and long term consequences. While the 'bad' panhandlers may, indeed, get their drinks somewhere else later somehow and thus you not giving them money won't curb their behavior I think that's still rationalization. You're still burying your head in the sand about what happens after you walk away feeling warm and fuzzy.
Further, that couple of bucks for the "good" panhandlers has very little positive benefit. They won't spend the money on a nutritious balanced meal....but if you gave that money to an organization that provides meals the same few bucks would feed 2 or 3 or more people a good solid meal.

clearly

Well, I'll tell you that I feel guilty when I walk by the homeless..perhaps you don't. If not then I apologize for my feelings onto you--perhaps you don't feel guilty. But I also feel that just b/c I feel guilty doesn't make it wrong that I walk by. I know that I make frequent contibutions to good charitable causes that I know go to good use.

If they need bus fare then get them a ticket. If they need clothes there are innumerable places they can get that for free and a donation to Salvation Army will go a long way to providing that to them for free. There are countless things people need, but if they have the where withall to stand on the street corner begging then they should have the wherewithall to hold a job that will provide much more than your couple bucks.

Haven't even read the rest of this paragraph yet, but you're WAY off base and taking this someplace totally different than anything I've suggested. I never said a word about different moral laws or double standards. And you were doing so well not making false accusations of me or changing the subject.

True but totally unrelated.

Do you have any idea what blood alcohol level a chronic alcoholic can walk around and appear totally sober? I'm going to guess "no". I've personally dischaged patients from the ER that are clinically sober, clear eyed, clear speach with blood alchol around 300 (.30 with legal level for driving in most states being .08). Whether they "appear" drunk or not is of no significance. It might ease your conscious a bit...and it might improve the odds that the money will go to good use a little, but is no guarantee.

I'm sure you're sincere Daniel...but you're also closed minded on the subject and won't even consider the information I'm providing...you put your personal experiences above mine. You ignore facts presented when they're inconvenient or don't fit with your world view.
The fact of the matter is that it is more beneficial to more people and has the added benefit of not contributing to bad habits like alcoholism if you exclusively give to charitable organizations who help the homeless than it is to give to panhandlers.
And I never suggested or implied you were 'signing a death sentence'...perhaps that's your own guilty concious conjuring that idea up.