Dashboard lit up like an Xmas Tree; Finally stalled out and facing the music

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by NoThrowningRocks, Jun 16, 2019.

  1. NoThrowningRocks

    NoThrowningRocks Junior Member

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    We'd been religious about changing the oil every 5,000 miles since owning our 2006 Prius with approximately 160,000 miles on it. Our house recently destroyed by fire and thrown things into turmoil, including maintenance of our vehicle.

    Probably driven about 5,750 miles since last oil change. Around 750 miles ago the maintenance light went on. Closer to 350 miles ago Red Triangle of Death came on along with check engine, etc. (every indicator except Brake light, which I believe is the only one the manual warns not to drive vehicle at all, and ABS light). Additionally, the PROBLEM notice at top of the console control screen along with an annoying beep was on.

    I know it was a (perhaps big) mistake to continue driving under these conditions. However, the only symptom at the time was delayed acceleration on occasion while driving over 45 mph on the freeway. There was a lag (even with pedal to the floor) but then it accelerated as usual.

    Recently, the engine started making a loud clicking sound and shortly thereafter the car stalled out as I pulled into a parking lot (the VSC light also just came on at that time). Praying the damage done wouldn't prove fatal, I had the car towed to Pep Boys for repair.

    I learned their store didn't handle hybrids, but the checked the DTC codes for me nevertheless, Unfortunately, the codes weren't written down and the mechanic described them (2) as "relating to the engine being under-powered... probably the battery." Also, they checked the oil and found it was very low (no leaks) and added 4 quarts.

    Unaware of Techstream at the time I purchased a VeePeak OCD2 bluetooth adapter and ran several apps using my tablet. Initially, no codes were showing so I just checked out the battery (results below). I decided to drive it around the parking - after waiting 10+ minutes for codes to appear - and drove it until a couple warning lights came on. All I got was "P010A Mass Air Flow MAF B Circuit Malfunction" error,

    The short drive around the parking lot was far from smooth and the sound from the engine became (not surprisingly) more pronounced. After parking the car I took a picture of where the clicking sound is coming from (below), specifically in red rectangle.

    1. Will codes show up on Techstream that are not now appearing in Torque, etc? (Perhaps it's able to see the history of error codes that were already cleared). If so, I'll purchase the connector (actually, going to do it anyway)
    2. Am I correct in assuming it's stupid to drive the car around the block or at higher speeds to get the car to generate more codes? [Most will probably get a good laugh out of that one, but just asking)
    3. What repairs can I expect and any ballpark estimates on costs?
    4. Do any of the screen shots tell you anything about the state of the HV battery?

    Thanks in advance for any help you can offer!
    Best,
    John
     

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  2. exstudent

    exstudent Senior Member

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    1. Engine is toast! Adding 4quarts of oil! Engine problems will only get worse moving forward, no pun intended. Start planning to replace engine (used, rebuild, or new), or replace the car. All vehicles that use gas/diesel can and will consume oil (leaks or burning in combustion process). For your next vehicle, get into the habit of checking engine oil level regularly and topping off to the full mark. All vehicle owners manual point this important aspect out.

    2. Techstream is the OFFICIAL diagnostic and maintenance software written for Toyota/Lexus. If codes were cleared, it will take time for to reappear.

    3. If the HV Battery is original, it might be going bad. 13years on original is a very good run.
     
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  3. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    I went to a New Owner's night just after getting our 2010. The Service Manager sheperded us through the service bay area, and at one point said "Our aim is to make it so you never need to pop the hood".

    The other side of that, is sand-pounders like this. :mad:

    upload_2019-6-17_14-3-24.png
     
    #3 Mendel Leisk, Jun 17, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019
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  4. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    welcome!

    sorry to say, but it is time to move on to a newer car. all the best!(y)
     
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  5. NoThrowningRocks

    NoThrowningRocks Junior Member

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    1. We religiously changed oil every 5k until lives thrown into turmoil after fire burned down our home down and 99% of our personal belongings. It's difficult to empathize with someone going through this experience unless experienced it yourself. I appreciate your recommendation to start looking for replacement engine, but the "habit of checking engine oil regularly..." comment unnecessary, especially when at 160,000 miles we've changed the oil over 30 times so it's a pretty well established habit. However, you only need to forget once to commit a colossal f-up, which is what I did and you correctly pointed out.

    2. How would your recommendation change - if at all - if the mechanic only added 2 quarts of oil? Not trying to be dismissive of the importance of routinely changing oil, but any thoughts on other symptoms mentioned in my initial post?

    What blows me away
    is the Prius was driven roughly 750 miles past the 5,000 marker and now the engine is toast. A friend drove his Nissan Maxima for 6,000 miles before changing the oil and it didn't destroy his engine (maybe he was just extremely lucky - perhaps classic dumb luck).

    3. I started pricing Prius engines and vendors are selling 2004 engines with low miles as compatible with the 2006. If true, will all Gen2 engines work with the 2006 or only certain years?

    Thanks for your reply. Wasn't what I hoped to hear, but what I needed to hear and I appreciate that very much.
    270 crosstree.jpg SSFD On scene.jpg
     
  6. NoThrowningRocks

    NoThrowningRocks Junior Member

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    Thanks for your reply!

    Quick question
    : Why do you say it's time to move on to a newer car? I've seen quotes for lower-mileage 2006 engines $650 to $1,000 and labor hours needed to replace engines around 15 hours. The interior/exterior is an excellent condition and at $80/hr labor cost I could be looking at a new engine for about the cost of a new battery or $2,200 ($1,000 engine + $80 x 15 labor = $2,200).

    Based on another reply it sounds as though the battery, however, may be on its last legs (?). It looks like, if I'm reading this chart correctly, each cell is holding roughly 7.5v, No idea if "State of Charge 58%" means it's still charging and could increase the voltage or not.

    Is the battery almost a goner?

    I'm willing to sink maybe ~$2.5k to get the car safely back on the road since many live well past 200,000 miles. Pep Boys sells new batteries for $1,200 (excl install costs).

    If I'm making some seriously wrong assumptions then I understand how you quickly determined it's a goner. Maybe I'm in denial.

    Any recommendations on what to check to find out if it's a lost cause for sure?

    Thanks!
    2019-06-19_20-06-35.jpg

    Screenshot_20190616-154256_Dr Prius.jpg
     
  7. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    If two quarts got it to the full mark on the dipstick (vs 4 quarts), that's a much better prognosis. If indeed it took the 4 quarts to get it to the full mark, no overfill, the engine was dry.
     
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  8. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    driving past the 5k oil change isn't what caused your problem, it is not check the oil every time you gas up that caused it.
    oil loss caught early can be rectified without engine damage.

    i apologize for making that statement about moving on. we all have our own pain thresholds, i was projecting.

    there is nothing wrong with replacing the engine now, the battery when the time comes, the brake actuator if and when, a/c compressor, yadda, yadda yadda.

    one note, pep boys battery isn't new, it is 'remanufactured' from old cells. likely a dorman. rebuilt batteries are iffy at best.
    the best price you can find on a new, non oem battery is $1,600. plus labor.

    all the best!
     
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  9. exstudent

    exstudent Senior Member

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    Religiously changing every 5kmiles/6months is VERY GOOD! Equally as important, is checking the engine oil level as frequently as possible. I do not get the impression you checked the engine oil level regularly, if at all. Apologies if I am mistaken.

    Bisco states it best:
    I forget who, but someone here has the best habit of checking the engine oil level every Saturday morning, before leaving their house to do errands. This is what everyone SHOULD do, but very few do. This person gets to monitor the engine oil consumption 52xs a year, and top off as needed. Any drastic consumption/loss issues will definitely get caught early!

    Page 325 of 2007 Owners Manual
    upload_2019-6-19_22-19-7.png upload_2019-6-19_22-26-46.png
    ALL vehicle manufactures with gasoline/diesel engines will stress the importance of checking engine oil level and provide a maximum oil consumption rate per 100s of miles.

    The Prius is a very low maintenance car, not a maintenance free car. Checking engine oil level is part of maintenance, unfortunately.
    I forsee you becoming religious about checking engine oil level with the replacement engine or the replacement car. Best to check the oil level when the car has been OFF for hours (ideally overnight); you will see this for yourself, as it is hard to get a good read when the engine has been OFF for a short period of time. Also, best to check when the car is on level ground (or as close to level ground as possible); checking when parked on extreme slopes (even along the curb b/c most roads are crowned) will give inaccurate readings.

    2 quarts is definitely better than 4. BUT, even 2quarts is bad; 1/2 quart too low; engine damage will be occurring. 4quarts = no engine oil; you are conducting a destruction test. Always try to keep the engine oil level near the top FULL mark.

    NEVER overfill; this can lead to other problems. Read this thread to be scared into NEVER OVERFILLING: Another Walmart oil overfill, Toyota is hinting at new ICE | PriusChat

    Page 404 of 2007 Owners Manual.
    upload_2019-6-19_22-19-49.png upload_2019-6-19_22-20-10.png

    A used HV Battery is NOT for you, since you want to keep the car longer, and I assume you want trouble free operation. Prius HV Batteries that are "remanufactured/reconditioned/rebuilt/refurbished/etc" are euphemisms for USED! I am sure you would agree that a USED part will never outlast a NEW PART.

    Read this post to get some ideas and learn about cost of a NEW OEM HV Battery or 2k1Toaster's new cylindrical modules.
    traction battery replacement options for Gen 2 with 210K miles | PriusChat

    My biggest concern for you is you do not seem to DIY. If this is the case, you will quickly spend a lot on repairs, and it will be better just to throw in the towel on this car now. On the other hand, now would be a good time to start to DIY. The car is worth very little right now. Any mistakes won't be costly. You will likely get a few hundred from a junk/salvage yard to pick-up this Prius after a catastrophic mistake. A win-win situation.
     
    #9 exstudent, Jun 20, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2019
  10. NoThrowningRocks

    NoThrowningRocks Junior Member

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    I apologize for making that statement about moving on. we all have our own pain thresholds, i was projecting.

    Hey, no worries. I didn't take it the wrong way and appreciate your advice. I'm just trying to research whether it makes sense to invest more in the car or if it's throwing good money after bad. I'll definitely keep a much closer eye on the oil level assuming I take the former route.

    I regularly changed the oil, completed routine maintenance and never had this problem with any of the cars I've owned, which include a Honda Prelude, Nissan 300ZX, Volvo S80 (nightmare), Corvette, Ford Explorer, Porsche 911, Honda Odyssey (started family), Nissan Maxima, Honda CRV. The only car purchased new was the Odyssey,

    I had no idea the Pep Boys HV batteries were re-manufactured, reconditioned, rebuilt, etc.as the guy definitely told me it was new. I assume this is stated somewhere on the box and I might have caught it then, but the info is much appreciated.

    I'll keep you posted on how things go. Thanks again for your help, much appreciated!
     
    #10 NoThrowningRocks, Jun 20, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2019
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  11. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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  12. Skibob

    Skibob Senior Member

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  13. NoThrowningRocks

    NoThrowningRocks Junior Member

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    First, big shoutout to exstudent (his call the "Engine is toast!" was - unfortunately - spot-on), Mendel Leisk (helpful insights), Skibob (tips for saving money) and of course bisco (knowledge and unique ability to be simultaneously very direct and empathetic) - a great group of guys whose feedback and helpful advice is greatly appreciated!

    PLEASE ADVISE on recommended next step(s):

    Introduction
    So this is a basic repair/replace issue with a twist: The repair cost could run as high as the cost to replace. I would choose to repair instead of replace if that happens - in my current state of ignorance - because better the devil I know than the one I don't. Body/interior in very good/excellent condition. Not confident I tested it correctly, but it appears nothing wrong with the battery (see Techstream, "HV Battery Live" results below). I'm also attaching a couple Techstream "Health Check" results, which may have relevant information.

    The car is marginally operational. I drove the car at low speed in Pep Boys parking lot hoping to get error codes back (idk why Pep Boys cleared the codes after checking), but didn't want to push it (lol, or else I'd literally end up pushing the car into a parking space!). Only DTC codes generated were: B1421, B1200, B1207, and B1271 (all seem very minor based on my research).Stored Data

    1. Mechanic's Assessment: Took car to Ozzie's, a Toyota shop with ~200 very positive Google reviews for assessment. Mechanic said he thinks a rod was thrown (maybe overheated?) and engine is "toast." He replaced the spark plugs (?) with no noticeable improvement in engine performance and said 95% confident engine is a goner.

    I read somewhere 2004/2005/2006 engines (maybe all Gen2) are interchangeable or essentially the same part. I asked the mechanic if claim is accurate and he didn't know. He also didn't know for certain a rod was thrown (after a conducting a preliminary assessment). Is this indicative the mechanic is not competent/qualified? I can see how this could go either way.

    2. Cost Estimate: Mechanic quoted 15 hours labor (@$95/hr) to install new engine* and $2,000 for the replacement engine (roughly $3,500) OR I could purchase replacement engine myself, but they wouldn't warranty anything if I did. Seems reasonable the shop wouldn't warranty an engine it didn't purchase, but if anything goes wrong with the car I'm concerned it becomes a question of "Is the engine faulty?" or "Is the problem with the installation?" Is this the correct way of looking at it or just unlikely to happen? I think buying a lower-mileage engine with a warranty should eliminate this issue.

    The mechanic said a recent customer bought his own part for a different repair and the car still had problems for which the shop wasn't responsible (is this a red flag?)
    * # Hrs engine replacement estimate seems high, but may include replacing parts one should do while engine out. What parts should be checked/replaced if I move forward on this?

    3. Engine Replacement: If I'm going to buy an engine, want to make sure I'm buying correct part. The relevance of the VIN 5th digit confuses me. Researched it and this is what I found:
    upload_2019-7-11_21-45-59.png
    * Entire document below
    I can't see the difference in 5th digit between "B" and "A." Some sellers listed the 5th digit as "K", which I believe is in error (looks like it was the 4th digit). Am I missing something? Do I need to buy a "B" engine If the 5th digit on my car is a B? Also, is there any truth to the claim a 2004/2005/2006 engine can but placed into the 2006?

    4. HV Battery Status: Please see the Techstream output on the HV battery below. Short version is all blocks about 15.3V. Not sure but maybe has ~3 years left?

    Thank you for any assistance you can offer!

    As aside, I don't like how the Prius dash doesn't include a heat gauge (perhaps "PROBLEM" is used instead, but why not say, "ENGINE OVERHEATING" or something more specific or critical). upload_2019-7-11_21-45-59.png Techstream 'Engine and ECT Live' Results.jpg Techstream 'HV Battery Live Results'.jpg Stored Data - DTC Codes.jpg upload_2019-7-11_21-45-59.png Techstream 'Engine and ECT Live' Results.jpg Techstream 'HV Battery Live Results'.jpg Stored Data - DTC Codes.jpg upload_2019-7-11_21-45-59.png Techstream 'Engine and ECT Live' Results.jpg Techstream 'HV Battery Live Results'.jpg Stored Data - DTC Codes.jpg
     

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  14. frodoz737

    frodoz737 Top Wrench

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    Your car is 13 years old, has a lot of miles and expensive broke. That's a good run even for man's best friend.
     
  15. NoThrowningRocks

    NoThrowningRocks Junior Member

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    I can't find a comparable Prius in similar condition (excluding the engine issue, of course) for less than $4,000. I'm meeting with the mechanic tomorrow to get specifics on what the $3,500 estimate does - and doesn't - cover. I got the impression it's going to include some small jobs that's easy to complete with the engine already out, but need to make sure.

    The shop I'm hiring to do the work, Ozzie's, has a reputation for completing jobs at or less than their estimates (+1). I want to know the mileage of the engine going into the Prius. I went to a number of sites looking at engine prices and it's hard for me to find one near $2,000. At buyusedengine.com the most expensive Prius engine on the site $1,320 (incl shipping - see here) with 38k miles on it.

    Even if we put a 40% gross profit margin on top of the retail price of $1,320 we get ~$1,800. Not $2,000. but then again, Ozzie's is providing a warranty (need to find out how long) so an extra $200 may actually be more than fair.
     
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  16. TMR-JWAP

    TMR-JWAP Senior Member

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    I would take a look at LKQ facilities for an engine. They have a pretty good rep. I'm sure there's plenty of affiliates in the Atlanta area. Many many engines at $300 and below available.

    Car-Part.com--Used Auto Parts Market

    There are some very good (<100k miles, some in the 70k range) available at very reasonable prices with 25 miles of Atlanta


    Another pretty important piece of the puzzle is that your 2006 uses a 1NZFXE 1.5L engine, not a 1.8
    The 1.8 is Gen 3.
     
    #16 TMR-JWAP, Jul 15, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2019
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  17. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    I don't mean this as throwing rocks, but there's an important message here for future readers who might see this thread.

    By this point, we don't know what the earliest warning was about, 350 miles ago. There are several hundred things that can turn those lights on, and some are big deals, some are tiny little deals, and some are tiny little deals that can turn big if ignored. The one way to tell whether the lights coming on are a big or a little deal is to read the trouble codes.

    I don't always keep my reader in the car; if I'm just around town doing my usual commute, I can probably wait until I'm home to find out what any warning light is about. If I'm leaving for a cross country trip, the reader gets packed, so if a light comes on 100 miles from anywhere, I can pull into a turnoff and find out why. Then I can decide whether it's a deal-with-it-later issue or a mission abort.

    The whole point of computers in the car doing full-time monitoring is so they can warn you of conditions developing before you would notice them yourself. So "I saw this warning, however the only symptom at the time was ..." are always sad words to read. If the computer could only warn you of problems that were already obvious, what would be the point? It would be like a weather rope.
     
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  18. frodoz737

    frodoz737 Top Wrench

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    Please...do yourself a favor NoThrowingRocks. Get rid of of this car and start over...with lessons learned. You're throwing good money after bad.
     
  19. NoThrowningRocks

    NoThrowningRocks Junior Member

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    Thanks for your reply, much appreciated. I'm certainly not taking your comments as an insult - I made a serious mistake and I hope others will learn from it. I'm far from proud - ashamed is more accurate - of how I handled the situation, though I'd like to believe I did the best I could under challenging circumstances. Dealing with the complete destruction by fire of our home for 15 years combined with insurance company failing to live up to policy terms, Greentree/Ditech unlawfully withholding funds to rebuild our home, a home contractor blatantly violating terms of contract, etc.

    Admittedly, even in hindsight this falls far short of justifying my failure to listen to the Prius telling me it desperately needed the attention I failed to provide. I suppose I would've stopped driving the car if I saw a simple H/C gauge climbing to HOT (as I've done before with other cars). Then again, the contrary argument, "You received way MORE warnings to not drive the car..." is FAR more persuasive.

    In one thread (not this one) I someone recommended buying a replacement engine with a dipstick! That point has very effectively been driven home (no pun intended) and is a mistake I will NOT repeat. I have Techstream, will be monitoring the oil level at least monthly (I like the idea of getting into the habit of checking every Sat morning before running errands), and have to learn from my mistakes and move on.
     
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  20. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    nothing wrong with putting a new engine in, if all you can afford is a similar car for more money.

    have you considered a non hybrid?
     
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