Dealer puts a wrong oil filter

Discussion in 'Prime Main Forum (2017-Current)' started by dasb, Nov 26, 2020.

  1. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    Yeah, it's not hard to trade them in for a profit, especially on the East Coast!

    Get the Limited this time—and the Blue Magnetism! ;)
     
  2. dasb

    dasb Junior Member

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    Thanks everyone for resolving my confusion. I was looking at Prius Prime oil change video on Youtube and found that they were using the cartridge type filter. Good to know that Toyota switched back to spin on filter.
     
  3. RRxing

    RRxing Senior Member

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    My 2017 came with the cartridge filter. Easy enough to change if I DIY, I just don't rush it. I'm pretty methodical when I do my own work, as opposed to "hoping" the dealer does it right (doesn't over torque the drain plug or filter cap, or overfill the oil). Thankfully I only have to change the oil twice a year. Swapping to a spin-on is enticing, but I'll stick with the cartridge.
     
  4. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    No thanks. I completely despise Softex seats and 11.7" display, which was the major reason I traded in my 2017 PP Premium to 2020 PP LE. I could not be happier I went with the lower and less expensive LE model. As for the color choice, it is totally subjective. I have no desire to pick a color that will stand out in a crowd. The Blue Magnetism was and is and will be the last choice I will pick from the current lineup.
     
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  5. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Sand Pounder

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    Just to stir the pot a little, if you replace the "2" suffix in OP's part no with a "1", that is a Toyota filter that's comparable but maybe 10 mm longer. You MAY have a clearance issue though: the engine block bulges out a bit past the filter.
     
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  6. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    It's hard to get any depth perspective in the OP's photograph, but I think there is plenty of clearance for several extra inches.

    Don't forget to add several more ounces of engine oil if you install a larger oil filter, depending on the added oil-filter size.
     
  7. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Sand Pounder

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    Here's a pic of my 3rd gen just after doing the conversion. Clearance to block is maybe 10 mm, but engine block wall bulges out just past the filter.

    Spin on oil filter | Page 2 | PriusChat

    Last pic in above.
     
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  8. The Big Sleaze

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    Lots of good info in post, thx. Buddy had beautiful 1970s 6cyl BMW coupe with cartiridge. Had to take it to BMW dealership prima donnas for oil changes because too hard to do at home and other places would decline the job. He said if he didn't know better they designed it like that to drive business to dealerships. Official story was BMW top flight engineering didn't trust normal filters to handle the supposedly higher oil pressure, or something. (rolls eyes).
     
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  9. PT Guy

    PT Guy Senior Member

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    A used celulose cartridge oil filter can be incinerated with little detrimental environmental effect. A used steel can spin-on filter in a landfill is an oil pollution problem; it's more difficult to correctly dispose of a used spin-on.
     
  10. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    In California spin-on oil filters get completely recycled.

    https://www.calrecycle.ca.gov/usedoil/filters
     
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  11. OptimalPrime

    OptimalPrime Member

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    I'm in the same boat and of like mind. Despite preferring a spin-on to the plastic cartridge housing, I have a great filter-cap wrench which happens to fit both the plastic cartridge housing and the OEM Toyota spin-on, so handles either version of Prime. I have a torque wrench for when tightening the plastic housing, and just do contact plus 3/4 of a turn for the spin-on. Even with a torque wrench, it always seems a bit disconcerting how the plastic housing tightens on, or seems to fail to even when it's fine. Yet, it's never leaked a drop, or gotten cross-threaded or cracked, so I haven't decided to convert it to spin-on, as tempting as that is.

    Neither filter is cleaner or messier than the other when changing the oil. I'd say that after changing the oil, there's more risk of an oil spill when disposing of the spin-on, even after I drain it and stuff a used paper towel in it. Somehow it always manages to collect some more oil that can be poured out. The little paper cartridge doesn't retain oil like that.

    I bought mine in Sept 2017, then accompanied a friend when she bought the identical (except for only the color, we thought) car in Dec 2017. When I went to do the 2nd oil change on mine, and the 1st on hers in May 2018, I was shocked to see that hers was spin-on! I had to run to Wal-Mart to get a spin-on for it. Since then, I bought a case of the cartridge filters for mine, and a handful of Toyota spin-ons for hers.

    On both my 2005 and her 2017 Prime, I've also used the Motorcraft FL400S as an above-average substitute when I don't have the exact Toyota spin-on with me. I don't any longer run to a Toyota dealer or pay though the nose for a Mobil1 filter at Wal-Mart, I've actually used the FL400S more often than not. 4.5qt of 0W20 and a FL400S, both from Wal-Mart, work like a charm in a spin-on Prime. I have a wide range of filter brands and sizes I've used on my 2005, none of which I've had a bad experience with. Just add about 1/2 quart less oil than you think you need, run the engine for a minute, check the oil, and fill based upon the dipstick reading. On my own cars, which burn/leak no oil, I have a slight preference for filling closer to the midpoint rather than the upper end of the acceptable range. Filling to the top of the range seemed to hurt mpg a little in one of my cars, making me fear overfilling from a dipstick being off a little. So I check that the specified oil/filter change amount, plus adjustment for any filter size difference is reasonably close to what it would take if filled to the upper dipstick mark, then fill 1/3 to 1/2 quart less than the larger amount of those two methods.

    I never used the free Toyota oil changes, and simply don't trust dealers to do anything right, or even not to "find things wrong" which aren't wrong, or outright sabotage something to create business. My friend had taken hers to the dealer for a free change at one point, and the next time I changed it, I literally had to hammer on a wrench for 5 minutes to get the oil drain plug out. Clearly not 28 ft-lb, but an unrestrained impact wrench was used at the dealership. It must have been SO close to stripping the threads out of the oil pan. Likewise, I had to use a Vise Grip chain wrench plus 2 big screwdrivers driven through the filter to get it off. A..holes.
     
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  12. OptimalPrime

    OptimalPrime Member

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    Edited out a double post (reason unknown)

    Mods please delete this one
     
    #32 OptimalPrime, Dec 27, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2020
  13. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    Never use any kind of a wrench to install a spin-on oil filter. Always tighten a spin-on oil filter by hand only.
     
  14. OptimalPrime

    OptimalPrime Member

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    I love my 2017 Prius Prime Plus, and also love that I got it in Anonymous Silver, just like my 05 Prius. It's a distinctive enough car already, without cops, nosy neighbors, road ragers, and everyone else being 100% sure it's you (the only one that color within a 10 mile radius) rather than some other silver one. And even where a silver Prime is rare, the fact that every year since 04 has had silver produced in huge quantities, still helps you blend in to 99% of people who don't specifically spot a Prime vs a Gen 4, or maybe even a Prime vs a Gen 2 or 3. To most people I'm just "a silver Prius".

    I can live without (at least 2 of) the 3 things I would have liked from the higher trims, at the time I bought it.

    #3 Garage door opener in rear view mirror, no longer matters to me, as I left the girlfriend with the garage door opener.

    #2 Touch opening in 1 place instead of 3. I'm used to using it with 1 now, despite still having 3 on my 2005. The fact that I can check that the hatch is physically locked without the attempt to check it unlocking it, partially makes up for needing to use the fob or to open the driver's door to unlock the hatch. I guess I'd still prefer 3 to 1, but it's nice to test that the hatch is really locked, without having to run and put the fob down away from the car. In that sense, 1 is better than 3, for the OCD, hahaha.

    #1 Heated steering wheel. WHAT were they thinking, separating heated steering wheel from heated seats? Really, in New England? Geographically, we should be made honorary Canadians by Toyota. But I'm very grateful they didn't hold back the heated seats. Love 'em. Let's see, I replaced the steering wheel in my Gen 1 to get cruise control. Maybe I should replace it in my Prime to get it heated. Or maybe going 1 for 1 on not deploying the airbag while doing steering wheel swaps, is a reason to stand pat without steering wheel heat. But c'mon, my snowblowers have all had heated handles for 20+ years. It isn't rocket science to heat the physical hand/machine interface in winter.
     
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  15. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Sand Pounder

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    I use a small yogurt tub with lid to contain the used filter, for running it down to recycler. Works for either filter style (I’ve done the conversion on our 2010).
     
  16. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Sand Pounder

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    I’d respectfully disagree with that advice. Just because mechanic did oil changes in past with an impact? The torque values are reasonable and effective, determined by engineers , never a problem if you follow them.

    “By hand only” may become a problem, an expensive one. It’ll likely be well short of either spin-on torque spec (3/4 turn or 13 ft/lb).
     
    #35 Mendel Leisk, Dec 27, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2020
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  17. OptimalPrime

    OptimalPrime Member

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    I pretty strongly disagree with that statement. I currently have no trouble turning it 3/4 turn beyond contact, by hand. So that is what I usually do. But have I ever finished reaching the correct filter rotation angle with a filter wrench of one sort or another, especially if the filter is in a nasty place to get my hands? Yes, I have. I didn't mean to imply that I normally use a torque wrench to turn the spin-on the 3/4 turn after contact. But even if I had, there is absolutely nothing wrong with doing so.

    Some filter makers specify slightly different angles or ranges of angles than simply 3/4 turn from contact. Do what they say. But it's pretty rare to find a filter where 3/4 turns isn't in the recommended range, so I always do that unless I have a specific reason not to. I'll just use that one number in the rest of this post. If you have a filter specifying a different number, substitute that number when I say 3/4 turn or 270 degrees.

    If I get feeble in old age, lacking the grip or strength to finish tightening it by hand, or get arthritis, I will OF COURSE use a ratchet and filter-cap wrench to turn it exactly the same amount I've been turning it by hand for the last 46 years. To prevent cross-threading, and to accurately determine the point where it contacts, I'd of course still spin it lightly by hand to the contact point.

    But once at the contact point, and after marking the filter or the cap wrench where tightening it 270 degrees will line your mark up with something, you could even use a 2 foot long ratcheting breaker bar to tighten it, as long as you stop at your mark, no harm done.

    The reason filters provide a rotation spec after contact, rather than a torque spec, is because the rotation angle (and hence gasket compression distance) would vary widely if you tightened it to a particular torque with a dry vs oily gasket, a rough vs smooth flange it's sealing against, a wide vs narrow gasket, etc. Knowing the thread pitch and specifying the rotation angle from contact, precisely controls the gasket compression distance, just like turning a micrometer.

    Specifically, the Prius Prime spin-on filter has 16 threads per inch. Turning it 3/4 turn after contact compresses its thickness by 3/64 of an inch. At that compression, it doesn't leak, it doesn't destroy the gasket, it doesn't vibrate loose, and it isn't too difficult to remove. Some filters are located where getting it 3/4 turn beyond contact requires some dexterity and strength. Others are located where I could easily overtighten it by hand to 1 turn or 1-1/4 turns if I wanted to. I don't do that. No shame in using a cap wrench, strap wrench, or anything else to finish the specified rotation if your hand can't safely fit somewhere well enough, or you're not strong enough to turn a tiny, oily filter well enough, or you have cuts on your hand healing, you have arthritis, or whatever. TURNING IT THE RIGHT AMOUNT, in the range specified by the FILTER MAKER is the only thing that matters, not what hands or tools you use to turn it, and not what the car maker specifies for the OEM filter, if you're not using the OEM filter.

    The car maker is only providing a thread (3/4 - 16 on Prius Prime, yes, non-metric) which the filter must match, and a flat smooth flange the gasket must fit onto completely and compress against. The filter maker is providing the actual gasket which gets compressed to seal the filter to the car. So, filter tightening specifications flow from the filter maker, not the vehicle maker. Thankfully, 3/4 turn from contact has worked well on every filter I've installed from 1974 to date, and I rarely even think to look for different instructions on a filter. 3/4 turn from contact, turns out to be a pretty strong hand tightening if the filter is small, your hands are at all oily, and you can only get one hand onto it well. AKA, Prius Prime.

    Many people don't have the hand strength to reach the specified rotation without causing themselves pain or injury. Under some circumstances, even a strong person can't do it. Using tools does no harm, if you follow the filter maker's rotation angle specifications rather than crank it down as hard as you can. Leaving it short of the correct rotation angle on the other hand, due to fear of using tools on it, risks leaks or even having it vibrate loose and quickly drain while driving, causing a blown engine if you ignore the oil pressure light for even the short distance to the next exit. Using tools is one of the things which separates us from the animals, remember 2001? Just use them properly.
     
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  18. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Sand Pounder

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    I’ve marked filter (after spun on to first contact) with silver sharpie at 6 o’clock on the end, then torqued to 13 ft/lbs. Mark ended up around 3 o’clock.

    Bottom line: they’re comparable.
     
  19. OptimalPrime

    OptimalPrime Member

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    Exactly as one would expect when an engineer provides 2 different methods of achieving the same goal. Presumably they chose a torque that gives a perfect rotation angle in the normal case as you found, and acceptable rotation angles in various worst-case scenarios of corroded flange, dry gasket, or whatever.

    Given the choice, I will always use rotation angle past contact, rather than torque, for spin-on filters. The gasket compression provided by the rotational angle is precise due to being the same design as a micrometer, while the gasket compression provided by a fixed torque depends upon the coefficient of friction between gasket and flange. Or worse yet, the effective coefficient of friction, if part of the torque goes into overcoming something other than sliding friction, such as snagging on burrs, mechanically interlocking into corrosion pits, peaks/valleys, etc. Or, in a really bad case, if the torque is coming from poorly machined screw threads in the filter, cross threading, the filter can wedging/dragging against some car part, road/accident debris, or something like that.

    So, you presumably oiled the gasket how the engineers assumed most people would, and your flange is in fine shape.. Exactly as the engineer hoped. But if someone has a pitted flange, or someone thought it best to wipe all oil from the flange and to not oil the gasket, the torque would have been reached at a smaller rotation angle, hence the gasket would not be compressed as much as intended. In the cases of a rough or pitted flange creating the same rotational resistance without as much gasket compression, you'd be protected against the filter coming off, but not necessarily against leaks. In the case of a dry gasket causing less compression, anything is possible, but they probably tested this scenario with it being such an obvious one. If oil later got between seal and flange, it would be exactly as if you oiled and tightened to a lower torque. And the less than desired compression would encourage oil to get in.

    I'm surprised they provided a torque spec, but it's good they provided a rotational spec also, and that it turns out to be perfectly equivalent in the normal case.
     
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  20. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Sand Pounder

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    Yes rotation angle is infallible. If filter gasket is lubed and mating surface clean, you can’t go wrong.

    Instructions say to lube the filter gasket, which seems redundant: filters come with a plastic sheath over gasket end, and gasket pre-lubed with sort of clear grease.
     
  21. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    I agree with you completely. I like anonymity when comes to owning a car. I don't like to make a statement. That's why when I traded my 2017 to 2019 PP, I picked the same magnetic gray. No one noticed that I got a new car.

    As for the list of things I miss downgrading from the mid-trim to the base trim. the number one for me is the loss of the Auto On-Off headlight. That was such a convenient feature I really wish I have it on my current LE model. 3 doors SKS comes the close second. I didn't even know Prime offered a garage opener function. Was that only in the Advanced trim?
     
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